Q for pilots that fly as Heavy Crew
 

For those of you that fly as a heavy crew

1- if you go with 3 CAs and 1 FO, do all the CAs have to be right seat qualified?

2- Does the PIC listed for the flight have to be in the left seat for every takeoff and landing?

If a 4 man crew is required then the CA flying FO needs to be right seat qual.
Whomever signs for the flight needs to be in the left seat for takeoff and landing

Do any airlines operate double-crewed with three Captains?

How many operate double-crewed with two Captains?

2 captains and 2 FO would be the norm. Otherwise 1 captain and 3 FO.

Most don't have a surplus of captains enough to. put three on one flight. An exception might be line checks and OE.

At K4, if you have three legs in a day or exceed 20hrs we have a LOA that requires 2CAs on those flight. The only time I have seen 3CAs was just a situation that NO FO was legal for the flight. FWIW...ALL CAs at K4 are right seat qualified.

At Atlas the norm for a heavy crew is 1 CA and 3 FO's.

However, things are never "norm" at Atlas. Frequently it'll be multiple CA's on one flight because of scheduling SNAFU's and lack of crews. Whoever signs for a specific leg is in the left seat except for training. All Atlas CA's are right seat qualed.

That's no true - at least at K4 its not
done it and seen it done several times

but the PIC that's signs it is responsible

that said I don't do it anymore - just to be on safe side

Same at Southern. 20 hour duty limit keeps the days a little more sane.

The first issue is whether there is seat dependent training in that airplane, at that airline and how it is defined. That is between the FAA and the airline.

There is no FAR that requires the PIC to be in the left seat. Now you get back into seat dependent issues, company policy and the feelings of the POI. It is even possible for a line check airman conducting OE to be in the jump-seat, though I doubt that anyone has done that since the 1950s.

This is not a subject that can be painted with a broad brush.

Thanks for all the replies.

So normally at my airline it would be 2 CAs and 2 FOs, but we currently have a shortage of FOs.
The CAs get right seat qualied at initial, but one of the CAs said he had recently done his PC and they did not do anything in the right seat. So we are thinking he was now not qualified to take off or landing in the right seat.

FYI- 121.509 says the duty limit for 4 pilot crews is 20 hrs, so that is not a contract thing.

Scheduled Duty 20 hrs, may be extendable by +2 hrs if specific flight delays are met / crew concurrence. Fine by me.

Still way better than normal mil “augmented” crews for a grand total of 3 crew members for 24 hrs, extendable by +2 hrs if criteria is met (waiver, etc.) Definitely don’t miss that...:rolleyes: Geesh. B2 or U2 drivers had it worse I hear... probably others as well.

If you read 121.513 it says “in place of the flight time limitations in 121.503 through 121.511 a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may elect to comply with the flight time limitations of 121.515 and 121.521 through 121.525 for operations conducted (international blah blah)”

Then go to 121.523 Crew of three or more pilots and additional airmen AS REQUIRED
(C)”no certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule any flight crew member to be on continuous duty for more than 30 hours.”

That as required part covers the fact that very few people fly with FEs or Navs anymore. It’s just a crew of 3 or more pilots.

Captains can also complete their right seat currency during their 6 month PT vs. their PC.

Not all “heavy crews” fly under 121.509. The company may choose to operate under the similar Supplemental reg of 121.523 with a 30 hour duty limit (K4), under Flag rules 121.485, or under 117 which is an entirely different animal.

Not all ACMI type Airlines operate solely under Supplemental CFRs. Atlas and Southern (probably others) have Domestic, Supplemental, and Flag OpSpecs.

The FAA has a legal interpretation letter that says an Airline must state which set of rules they choose to operate under when using 121.513.
My airline has it in the FOM that we use 121.503-511,
so in our case 20 hrs is the max duty for a heavy crew and can not be extended.

I talked with one of our CAs, he said he just did recurrent sim and they did not give him a right seat checkout. So, I would say he is not current to fly a heavy crew flight , unless he is the PIC.

How do you figure? There are two relief pilots on a heavy crew flight. Even IF he didn’t satisfy whatever right seat qual may or may not be in the FOTM, whose to say he has to relieve the FO? Why can’t he relieve the Captain and let the other guy relieve the FO? Are you up there playing musical chairs?

I don’t doubt that. It would be hideous if the company could change which one you fall under on a whim. I was just showing that 24 really is a CBA limitation at some companies, and not a FAR.

You may be able to do that, but if it says a CA must be current and qualified in right seat, then both have to be right seat qualied. You cant just say well one of them is so that is ok. Anyone on the flight deck has to meet the currency requirements of the position they are flying. If you are a relief pilot, then you need to be able to relieve either pilot.
if one guy can only relieve the CA, then why not just have one crew fly the plane down and the other fly back.

Why would they even have CA do a right seat check out in initial if they didn't need it to meet qualifications? So if they do it in initial, and then dont do it in recurrent, i would say they are no longer current in the right seat.

As the lone IRO on an augmented flight, yes you absolutely must be qualified to relieve both pilots. As one of two IRO's on a heavy crew flight (which is what he's talking about), I'd disagree. You only need to be able to relieve who you're going to relieve. It's just about making sure nobody is at the controls for more than 8. So just pick a seat and try not to touch any dusty switches.

If you actually read the FOTM, the right seat qual is satisfied just by flying seat support for another PIC in the sim. So it's entirely dependent on the sim pairing whether or not you actually have to land from the right seat. This individual was probably paired with an FO on his initial type course, as many folks here were, but since there are a lot more CA's than FO's right now, he probably wasn't for recurrent. Hence the program being different. It's kinda funny that everyone is getting all hyped up over a CA flying right seat, but nobody mentions that there is no specific left seat qual in our FOTM, yet you have FO IRO's flying left seat. Now, you take your type from the left seat, but it isn't part of the recurrent program. I must say, it is pretty tricky running the radios with my other hand. Thrills, chills, and narrow escapes, I tell ya.

As to why they don't deadhead a crew down and have them operate back, you might want to check part 121 Supplemental Flight and Duty rules and the CBA. They're vastly different for a Heavy Crew vs two separate two man crews. They tried that. Doesn't work. It provides no benefit (duty-wise) over a two-man crew.

I did five legs in a row without an FO. 3/5 we had three captains. The other two legs, we had four captains.

Where I fly, the senior capt, in consultation with everyone, decides who will sign for the aircraft and who will be in which seats for landing/takeoff, and who will fly. On my flights, the Capt signing for the aircraft has always sat in the left seat for TO/Landing.

All FOs r pic qualified, and all capts r right seat qualed.

Heres how we do it in the C-17 world.

Everyone is left and right seat qualified from the start.

An augmented crew is required for duty operations over 16 hrs, max duty day is 24 hours (there are a couple caveats in minimum leg length too)

Augmented crew (pilot wise) consists of minimum 1 Aircraft Commander (captain) and 2 First Pilots (co-pilots)

Now you can staff the crew with 3 Aircraft Commanders if you want and you can have any combination of pilots in the seat for take off and landing regardless of who signed for the jet (A code in AF parlance)

A lesser experienced First Pilot or FP can only sit in the right seat for take off and landing if a Aircraft Commander or Mission Pilot (MP) occupies the left seat. If there is an Instructor Aircraft Commander or IP in the other seat, that inexperienced guy can take off and land from the left or right seat.

A more experienced FP can occupy the left or right seat regardless if there is an MP in the left or right seat.

An MP can occupy either seat for take off and landing.

Clear yet? We have a lot of flexibilty in who operates where, but the duty days can be long and only have 3 pilots, whereas a 121 airline would be required to staff the jet with 4 pilots.

Which airlines fly C17’s?

That’s not how they do it in the C-172.

Well.....let me tell you how we did it at my last airline! Lol

Oh, you haven’t heard about the merger? The new pilot uniform is commonly known as a “green bag”. :D

yes , you need to be qualified to relieve who you are going to relieve, that is the point, if 1st IRO who is right seat qualified relieves CA, then FO can not be relieved. And if next time there are 2 CAs that are not right seat current , flight is illegal. Your FOTM may say they become current if they sit in right seat in recurrent, but if they dont do that as a part of the planned training and just rely on chance that pilots go with another CA, guess what is going to happen?

Also, Boeing does not have a Type rating course for FOs, when you get your Type at Boeing its as a CA regardless of what you are at your Company. So for a year after initial, all FOs are left seat current and can fly as IRO. If they don't do left seat checkout in recurrent , they are not current to fly as IRO. This is nothing new, all the majors who have IRO biddable positions would send their IROs to sim every year for left seat checkout before the 1500 hr rule (back in the day FOs didn't get typed in initial)
It does not matter if it is not in your FOTM, it is in the FARs, you need to be qualified and current in the position you fly.

in supplemental ops
3 pilot crew is good for 12 aloft and 18 of duty,
4 pilot crew is good for 16 aloft and 20 duty
so there is an advantage to using a 4 pilot crew

It can actually be up to 30 hours of duty under the FAR depending on which supplemental rules a company falls under.