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Old 04-17-2019, 08:56 AM   #81  
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Originally Posted by zerozero View Post
However! The young and inexperienced applicants need to wake up and acknowledge a couple more factors beyond low pay.

1) If this is your first airline job and first transport category jet you need to realize the training program is largely "self guided". You're sat down in front of a computer, issued an iPad with literally dozens of company documents and you're responsible for ALL. OF. IT. Ok, fine, you pass the oral, you even pass the checkride, but you still have to pass OE and no one is holding your hand. IN FACT, since the Atlas 767 crash, the FAA is crawling all over the training center.

2) Low pay and risk of a 121 training bust on your record not enough to keep you away? Ok, fine, you still must contend with the fact both Atlas and Southern (and ABX for that matter) are in a knock down, drag out gutter fight with management and all that entails. Everything from risk of flying being transferred from one carrier to the other (AKA: The Whipsaw) and the possibility of going on strike during your 1st year of probation.

Living the dream!

A wise old man would probably suggest it's far safer to simply build time the more traditional way than to risk your training record, a certificate action or professional reputation while attempting a short cut to a Boeing job.

Low pay is the least of your worries especially if you're still living at home. The other stuff will follow you around for the rest of your career.
Great post and I feel like this discussion is not a well know topic ever brought up on APC about training at Southern Air.

Southern Air has not been a sign-up and get your free type rating kind of place like Atlas had been over the past few years. Failures and employee terminations for those struggling in training is common these days.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:20 AM   #82  
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Originally Posted by zerozero View Post
However! The young and inexperienced applicants need to wake up and acknowledge a couple more factors beyond low pay.

1) If this is your first airline job and first transport category jet you need to realize the training program is largely "self guided". You're sat down in front of a computer, issued an iPad with literally dozens of company documents and you're responsible for ALL. OF. IT. Ok, fine, you pass the oral, you even pass the checkride, but you still have to pass OE and no one is holding your hand. IN FACT, since the Atlas 767 crash, the FAA is crawling all over the training center.

2) Low pay and risk of a 121 training bust on your record not enough to keep you away? Ok, fine, you still must contend with the fact both Atlas and Southern (and ABX for that matter) are in a knock down, drag out gutter fight with management and all that entails. Everything from risk of flying being transferred from one carrier to the other (AKA: The Whipsaw) and the possibility of going on strike during your 1st year of probation.

Living the dream!

A wise old man would probably suggest it's far safer to simply build time the more traditional way than to risk your training record, a certificate action or professional reputation while attempting a short cut to a Boeing job.

Low pay is the least of your worries especially if you're still living at home. The other stuff will follow you around for the rest of your career.
All valid points. I am going to say these are the challenges a new hire will face at just about any carrier now days. Most PM at other airlines are probably looking at the training programs to make sure there are no cracks in the process. I know ABX is making adjustments to meet the requirements of the current applicants. I am guessing everyone else is to. Friends that are now at ABX that went to Omni while on furlough said it was extremely challenging but doable. From posts on APC K4 is no gimme either. I think it is an adapt or fail environment. But as usual if one shows up 100% prepared and with a great attitude they usually survive. In 2007 training in United sims in Denver and going thru the training center everyday... there was quite a bit of self taught on the computer just as most carriers have gone too. I have said for awhile..some day we will doing our v1 cuts while sitting on the john with your IPad and just email the co the results.

Last edited by nitefr8dog; 04-17-2019 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:47 AM   #83  
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They make it sound great when you interview. You would not know any of the mess was going on. Thank God for APC as you would not know what your getting yourself into. Reading today has definitely convinced me not to do what I did two years ago and make a big mistake by going to one of these awful places. So, thank you for the info!
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:33 PM   #84  
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They make it sound great when you interview. You would not know any of the mess was going on. Thank God for APC as you would not know what your getting yourself into. Reading today has definitely convinced me not to do what I did two years ago and make a big mistake by going to one of these awful places. So, thank you for the info!
Everyone associated with hiring has a primary goal, to hire qualified pilots (where these goal posts are change constantly). Some airlines go about it much less honorably than others.
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:48 PM   #85  
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Great post and I feel like this discussion is not a well know topic ever brought up on APC about training at Southern Air.

Southern Air has not been a sign-up and get your free type rating kind of place like Atlas had been over the past few years. Failures and employee terminations for those struggling in training is common these days.
Thank you.

The thing for all perspective new hire pilots to remember at ANY airline is that you will be trained by your fellow pilots....not Management. The hiring wave may have gotten you in the door but the minimum standards to make it to the line have not changed.The goal of everyone at EVERY training department is to put well-trained, fully qualified, safe pilots in the seat. I can assure you that the Training Department at Southern does not feel any pressure to do otherwise.
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:17 AM   #86  
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Everyone Iíve met here so far is exceptionally qualified and professional. Yeah, so youíve got to study an airplane by yourself. Not a big deal. There is a plethora of experienced pilots that are at various stages of training that are more than happy to sit and talk with you. For those that donít succeed, well, they didnít pass for a reason.

As for pay: min guarantee happens if/when you donít fly the whole trip (on 73ís). If you fly or are available your whole duty time (17days), you get the higher of min, CRT or block/credit. On the 73 this averages around 68-78hrs of pay every month. Yeah, itís not great and Iím ready for more but is way better than a regional.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:44 AM   #87  
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Everyone Iíve met here so far is exceptionally qualified and professional. Yeah, so youíve got to study an airplane by yourself. Not a big deal. There is a plethora of experienced pilots that are at various stages of training that are more than happy to sit and talk with you. For those that donít succeed, well, they didnít pass for a reason.

As for pay: min guarantee happens if/when you donít fly the whole trip (on 73ís). If you fly or are available your whole duty time (17days), you get the higher of min, CRT or block/credit. On the 73 this averages around 68-78hrs of pay every month. Yeah, itís not great and Iím ready for more but is way better than a regional.
CaptDave, How long have you been at Southern for? On the 767 at Atlas, they talk all about how you'll get CRT and can expect 70-80 hours of pay. However, the reality for the past year or so for us has been that, unless you're quite senior, almost all of the lines now are worth about 55 - 60 hours. Very, very difficult to make more than minimum guarantee anymore.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:30 PM   #88  
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CaptDave, How long have you been at Southern for? On the 767 at Atlas, they talk all about how you'll get CRT and can expect 70-80 hours of pay. However, the reality for the past year or so for us has been that, unless you're quite senior, almost all of the lines now are worth about 55 - 60 hours. Very, very difficult to make more than minimum guarantee anymore.
Most of the lines Iíve seen available are around 68-76hrs of CRT, 385 TAFB, and 35-50 credit. However, the -800 lines are sitting around 78 CRT, 385 TAFB, and 62hrs credit.

Do the math and itís not bad pay (better than any regional).
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Old 04-19-2019, 01:18 AM   #89  
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Most of the lines Iíve seen available are around 68-76hrs of CRT, 385 TAFB, and 35-50 credit. However, the -800 lines are sitting around 78 CRT, 385 TAFB, and 62hrs credit.

Do the math and itís not bad pay (better than any regional).
Southern Air - doing 40 day trips around the world over and over again on the 777. No way to not decline the flying on days off. Min rest, body clock FU... I donít know what your defention of good pay is, but you couldnít pay me enough to wreck my body like that.

The 737. Ah yes. Night flying, hub turns, eyes burning, day time sleeping, waking up groggy ASF, only to do it agin. All for min pay, never breaking guarantee.

Iím sure plenty will take a bite, but it wonít take long for one to go- WTF did I get myself into.

If you donít believe me, go see for yourself....
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Old 04-19-2019, 02:15 AM   #90  
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Originally Posted by CaptDave View Post
Most of the lines Iíve seen available are around 68-76hrs of CRT, 385 TAFB, and 35-50 credit. However, the -800 lines are sitting around 78 CRT, 385 TAFB, and 62hrs credit.

Do the math and itís not bad pay (better than any regional).
Again, I ask, how long have you been flying the line at Southern? Youíve conveniently forgotten to mention how southern, like atlas, has no sort of line or pay protection whatsoever. So sure, enjoy being awarded a 79 hour line. Can scheduling change it on a whim to make it worth 62 hours (or 50 on your first year) whenever they feel like it? You betcha.
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