DC8DRIVER

All absolutely true. Most of this applies to me as well as, I assume, you.

The issue isn't that Atlas is now forced to hire less qualified pilots, or less experienced pilots, but that many pilots regardless of qualifications and experience are simply too unqualified and experienced to be hired at a company that places such significant responsibility on new hires in such a remarkably short time span.

It would be one thing if our training department were equipped, trained, and allowed to provide the necessary training, but they aren't.

It is said that all flying is %10 skill and %90 judgement.

Skills can be taught - given enough time.

Judgement can truly only come with experience.

It is entirely possible that an Atlas captain with zero international experience could end up flying on the back side of the globe with a crew who have less experience than he has. We have already had NAT trained pilots fly the NOPAC routes who were had no idea about how obtain their clearance (not required) and, conversely, NOPAC trained pilots who crossed the NAT Tracks all the way to Europe without uttering a word to anyone (where a clearance is definitely required).

And, while OTJ guidance is routinely given out by Atlas captains, the training department is forced more and more often to simply dump less-than-qualified pilots into the system to be brought up to speed on virtually EVERYTHING by non-instructor line captains which is neither safe nor is it fair to those captains.

So, no, being a skygod is not a requirement to be hired here, but neither can we hire pilots who have no idea how to operate in complex, unsupported, and extremely difficult circumstances without some sort of "ZERO-TO-MACH-ONE" training regimen like the military has and Atlas ain't going to do that.

TiredSoul

The biggest most valuable item in your tool box as a pilot is common sense.
Not experience.
Common sense can not be taught.
If you ask me something and I answer “I don’t know” you need to value that I’m being honest and not hammer me for “not knowing” or going on your diatribe about how the Training Center is not teaching your pet peeve.

DC8DRIVER

Not sure why you are trying to pick a fight here. I also agree that common sense is also valuable.

If a new hire has common sense:

1. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to graduate the Atlas training system as a pilot who knows enough to be a safe pilot?

2. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to ask the right questions prior to getting into trouble?

3. Why wouldn't they have had the common sense to get hired SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN AT ATLAS ???

There isn't a captain at Atlas that won't answer a new hire's questions. But to hold a long range nav class in flight during what is supposed to be your rest period is asking too much ... even if a guy has lots of common sense.

While common sense is always a good thing and in aviation it will keep you from walking into the prop, but it won't help you navigate the bamboo triangle on a dark and stormy night. Experience will. And experience can't be taught, either.

TiredSoul

Yes there are.

Agree with you there.
But that can’t be taught in a classroom either.
So if it can’t be taught in a classroom where does it need to be taught?

*and I’m not looking for a fight by the way, just explaining from my side of the “my buttons, our buttons”.

JohnBurke

Before or after those who aren't qualified, yet squeak through, drive a 767 into the mud?

Excargodog

Filler filler

TiredSoul

The Buffalo NY crew was also qualified.
And so were these:
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/delta.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/american.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fedex.htm
http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/ups.htm

JohnBurke

There's qualified, then there's qualified.

Holding an ATP and having enough hours to get the job means squat. The FO in the 767 had the hours, but all one needs to know about those is the last one.

A byproduct of movement in the industry is that many slots are being filled by people who not long ago wouldn't have been considered. People who are attempting to run before they are prepared to walk, much less crawl.

DustoffVT

[QUOTE=X58DeltaDriver;2818680]
So true. Take any C130 SAFIRE report, and right after will be the report from the -60 they were actually shooting at...

CardboardCutout

The reality of the situation is that the highly experienced, top of the stanine test aviators are getting rather thin on the ground. I'm a noob in the international big plane sky gawd game, but after a couple of decades in "private jet" flying, the problems you're confronting seem pretty familiar, and I don't have an answer for you other than "do everything you can to bring the other guy up to where he needs to be". Not out of altruism, but out of rational, enlightened self-interest. Realistically, the guys who are going to the right seat in ACMIs (or LCCs, or anything that isn't a Legacy) are not going to be the aces of the base, for the most part. The thing is, the plane doesn't move without an ass in both seats. If the plane doesn't move, it gets parked or sold. I'm trying to learn as hard and fast as I can, as I suspect 90% of the noobs are. But taking the attitude of "you don't belong here" doesn't help anyone, including the salty. I agree, btw, that there are the 10%ers who just scream entitlement and want to raise the gear and stare at their phones, but most of us want to get to be competent, capable crewmembers, and we're dead anxious to absorb the knowledge you have. By helping us, you help yourselves.