Amazon Response
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-threatens-to-move-business-after-cargo-pilot-protests-2019-5?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_cont ent=topbar&utm_term=mobile&referrer=facebook

I would jump for joy if Atlas got a contract out of this, but I'm afraid that the company already hitched their wagon to playing hardball, and will take the hit in business in order to keep their margins on the business they keep. Would love to be proven wrong.

You think that Atlas is going to risk losing Amazon's business and miss out on other business opportunities just to spite the pilots? Yep, I think you're exactly right.

Would be very interesting if true....

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Of course not. I fear that they've made a calculation that losing *some* of amazon's business and losing other business to competitors will be a winning long term strategy, as they will maintain their margins on the work they do fly, and when the next downturn hits, they will be at a considerable advantage. It doesn't make sense to me that they've dragged it out this long if they didn't have some such nefarious plan...this can hardly be a surprise.

Again, this is obviously speculation, and I would be delighted if I'm 100% wrong and they sign an industry leading contract tomorrow.

Yes, I'm sure it's also possible that the Atlas execs who live in their New York bubble probably all thought that the world economy would enter a downturn after the election of Trump.

And boy were they wrong.

They're probably still betting on that.

And boy are they wrong.

Their possible "winning long term strategy" sounds like the dumbest strategy that I've heard of in a long time. Or they just don't care and just want to spite the pilots. I continue to be amazed that the board and shareholders still allow these bozos to keep their jobs.

Amazon is in control - they don’t have direct access to the pilots, so let’s send out a press release saying we will take their 20 old ass 767’s away for wanting money to fly them.

The ol’ whip saw two step.

A contract is still years away, Amazon and atlas have many plays in their play book, and not one of them include more money for the Atlas Pilots.

It’s more simple than that- dragging out negotiations indefinitely is profitable for mgmt right now regardless of predicting the next downturn and RLA structure supports this; then, when the economic downturn happens, you can always furlough to cut labor costs new contract or not.

I wish there was a nefarious, master plan. I fear the truth is much more silly.

I fear the problem is individual motivations and egos rather than some larger machination. Once someone hangs their professional, personal or social identity on a given course of action any reevaluation involves a certain loss of face. That loss of face affects career progression, etc. So the incentives at the very top are to dig in one's heels regardless of the outcomes for shareholders, flight safety, etc.

This is why we are proclaiming that we're doing a great job and lauding ourselves when we still haven't announced any corrective action since we crashed an airplane and killed three people. The same things that have broken our safety systems here have also broken executive decision-making process.

I like Amazon citing this labor issues and Atlas specifically. It suddenly re-prioritizes things in terms of career risk and sets an incentive for various parties to be the first to compromise rather than the last to hold-out in front of customers and shareholders.

^^^ This...Amazon will crush Atlas if they don't play by Amazon's rules.

I think it would be a huge miscalculation on everyone's part to assume that threat was only aimed at management. Amazon is the last company to want workers to be at or near the top of the payscale.

Winner. This was solely directed at the pilots. If anyone believes Atlas MGMT is going to hand over a CBA right now, no way. In fact, this just got longer. Dig in boys. Years left to fight

I agree with boeingdvr. Company executives don’t negotiate with each other through the media. This was aimed solely at the pilots. Jeff B must be getting tired of the protestors, sign trucks, etc. Bring back the banner tow plane. That will surely get noticed.

Negotiations at ABX went south. Soapy sang the same old song. Well I guess BeZos will be sending his threats to ATSG next. Let the games continue.

100% ABX will lose the Amazon flying! 6 planes easy to replace. I can only imagine the amount of pilots to go elsewhere or retirement over the summer will jump to an all time high.

I’m a pretty noob pilot still so pardon the forthcoming question if this is common knowledge in the industry: short of a strike of some kind, what is entailed with fighting for a better contract? I presume periodic negotiations back and forth, the periodic picketing (maybe?) and not much else?

Periodic "negotiations", yes - both sides walk into a room, and nothing happens. Why does nothing happen? Because government, through the Railway Labor Act, has placed their finger on the scale in favor of management by prohibiting any self help (strikes or other job actions) until given explicit permission to do so by the National Mediation Board. When there is upward pressure on pay and benefits as is the case now, there is absolutely no incentive for management to give an inch until they are threatened with the prospect of the union being released by the NMB to self help, and that takes years.

You would think that the increasing instances of training no-shows, early dropouts, washouts, and high turnover as pilots leave for greener pastures would be an incentive to move, but so far, it hasn't been.

I think that passenger airlines, especially the bigger names, have an easier time of it because they can make a big show of their informational picketing - they get big news coverage, everybody recognizes the big names, and it's bad PR for the airline. Nobody has ever heard of Atlas (or any of the others), and nobody cares.

There has recently been a direct connection to Amazon as somebody asked Jeff Bezos about the situation, and his response indicated that he doesn't care - he told both sides to get it together, or he would move his business somewhere else.

Ask your Congressional representatives to fix the RLA - to take government's finger off of the scale and allow the market to work unimpeded.

this is a key point! this is why the crash in Houston got about a days worth or national news coverage. If that had been a passenger 767 from one of the majors it would have been on every TV for weeks look at the 737-MAX its still in the news because passengers died.

Atlas flies a lot of AMC flights. That could have been 255 soldiers in an Atlas 767. That would have gotten continuous, long-lasting attention. That fact should cause AMC to be taking a serious look at Atlas's situation.

When the probably-horrendous NTSB report comes out, there will be renewed attention.

Instead of towing banners, pilots should be writing their representatives and the media about their concern for the troops.

The RLA isn't going anywhere, because the public won't stand for pilots making $100K+ per year ruining their Christmas by disrupting passenger travel or deliveries. That ABX would intentionally time their strike (ruled not permissible) in the middle of Peak with no regard for the general public significantly set back the cause of softening the RLA. Executive action to bolster the NMB's numbers to permit more-frequent scheduling of sessions might, however, be something to push for.

No, ABX pilots struck immediately in response to managements actions, it wasn’t delayed in any way until the 4th quarter for a bigger impact.

Exactly! It was during the 4th qtr that management decided to violate 3 items of the contract during section 6 negotiations because they cannot figure out how to staff the airline...not a smart move. Since the court ordered them to stop and they paid the pilots hundreds of thousands to fix it...one would hope they learned something going forward....just saying.

The pilots of all the airlines that do the Amazon flying should organize together. Bezo’s is just going to bring down the industry pay if they don’t. More strength in numbers right?

They have...all 1224.

Reality:

Management = Winner
Labor = Loser

If you are the labor side of the equation it will be a Sisyphean task battling with management. Period. You will never prevail.

Atlas will delay the negotiating process into perpetuity. Any feigned attempt of cooperation is just a red herring to throw out a glimmer of hope that there will be agreement coming forthwith.

If you believe any of their obfuscation you're a fool.

That's the truth of the matter, sorry.

And there-in lies the the problem.

Not all of them. One single pilot group at ALPA.

Thank you for the helpful answer. Sounds like union reps do these periodic meetings for show for the pilots they represent more than anything else if the Railway Labor Act neuteres their ability to get much done. That’s a big shame.

To be clear, the union is not there for show. There is significant effort being put into making the case for an ABX pilot contract. Management continues to hold to a proposal that essentially adds more concessions to those already given in negotiations ten years ago, simply because they can.

They don't count...they proved to everyone they are not smart enough to see where this headed by accepting a contract for just a pay raise without fighting for what was available.

At least it's a start and they won't be getting paid complete **** while working on improving the rest of their contract

if you're talking about K4, they don't fly for Amazon

He is not talking about Kalitta.

ATSG owns ATI, ABX and Omni. ATI flies for Amazon and is ALPA.

Yes...they also were willing to work for complete **** and then accepted a pay raise without much else. You are right.

The irony of reading a thread about the evils of Amazon.... while being subjected to Amazon advertising. Bwahahahaa....

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It's a start, and the end. They might feel like ATSG is rewarding them for being good boys, but ATSG doesn't do that. Any hope of improvement on the next contract will quickly be dashed against the brick wall of ATSG management. Negotiations will drag on for several years. I'd even wager that the next contract will be negotiated during an economic downturn, and management will ask for concessions.