Atlas vs PSA (AA regional)
06-10-2019, 09:02 AM
#61
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
Not sure what time frame you are referring to about a pilot shortage? The mid to late 1990s had a hiring wave that all abruptly ended in 2001 and created a decade of career destruction.
A great pilot contract had nothing to do with the shutdown of Comair.
Comair had the oldest fleet of 50 seat RJs in the Delta system.
Fuel prices went through the roof and Delta management had realized they had way overbought on 50 seaters.
Larger RJs (better CASMs) were coming to Comair.
As Delta needed to drastically reduce 50 RJs, they went to all of their regional contractors asking for reductions. All of the regional partners were independent companies (unlike Comair) who told them to pound sand as their fleets were protected by existing contracts.
The one fleet that was not protected under contract (Air Service Agreement) was the wholly-owned Comair fleet. All future 70-90 seat RJs were then diverted from going to Comair to instead go to other regionals on a 2 for 1 reduction of 50 seaters.
The remaining 50 seater Comair fleet was parked in an orderly shutdown.
Saying Comair shut down over pilot pay is like saying I don't drive a Ferrari because I can't afford the gas.
Same for Comair, same now. Just because we, as pilots, think the world revolves around us, doesn't actually mean that it does.
Aircraft fleet selection, fleet size, aircraft financing, fuel burn, network routes structure, hubs strategy, aircraft utilization, maintenance, etc. have way more impact to the bottom line than the pennies a pilot may make over his/her competition.
A great pilot contract had nothing to do with the shutdown of Comair.
Comair had the oldest fleet of 50 seat RJs in the Delta system.
Fuel prices went through the roof and Delta management had realized they had way overbought on 50 seaters.
Larger RJs (better CASMs) were coming to Comair.
As Delta needed to drastically reduce 50 RJs, they went to all of their regional contractors asking for reductions. All of the regional partners were independent companies (unlike Comair) who told them to pound sand as their fleets were protected by existing contracts.
The one fleet that was not protected under contract (Air Service Agreement) was the wholly-owned Comair fleet. All future 70-90 seat RJs were then diverted from going to Comair to instead go to other regionals on a 2 for 1 reduction of 50 seaters.
The remaining 50 seater Comair fleet was parked in an orderly shutdown.
Saying Comair shut down over pilot pay is like saying I don't drive a Ferrari because I can't afford the gas.
Same for Comair, same now. Just because we, as pilots, think the world revolves around us, doesn't actually mean that it does.
Aircraft fleet selection, fleet size, aircraft financing, fuel burn, network routes structure, hubs strategy, aircraft utilization, maintenance, etc. have way more impact to the bottom line than the pennies a pilot may make over his/her competition.
Comair already had lots of 70/90s, for example - but they were put out to bid, Comair could not bid competitively (infrastructure cost, including high salaries), and they were awarded to other carriers. Those aircraft were moved from Comair to other carriers PRIOR to the shutdown.
Keep in mind, Comair was not competing with Delta or Delta pilots on cost; they were competing with Go-jet, Mesa, Freedom, etc. Guess who could fly the same routes cheaper?
It was not fuel prices. Again, I am sure you know this, but fuel was always a pass through expense for everyone - billed back to and paid by Delta ultimately and in full, as part of all the agreements. so none of the regional carriers competed on fuel price. The only variable costs were labor and infrastructure.
Comair shut down because it was more expensive to operate than the other carriers, in part because rates for pilots, flight attendants, and office staff were more expensive then everyone. Some also feel Delta was extracting a bit of revenge over that contract, signed after an 89 day pilot strike. So yeah, Comair was shut down over high costs, including a great pilot contract.
To say otherwise is to ignore what happened and try to bend it to fit your point.
06-10-2019, 12:26 PM
#62
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Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by skywatch
This is an interesting take on history, if not accurate. Either you were not there, or you don't remember.
Comair already had lots of 70/90s, for example - but they were put out to bid, Comair could not bid competitively (infrastructure cost, including high salaries), and they were awarded to other carriers. Those aircraft were moved from Comair to other carriers PRIOR to the shutdown.
Keep in mind, Comair was not competing with Delta or Delta pilots on cost; they were competing with Go-jet, Mesa, Freedom, etc. Guess who could fly the same routes cheaper?
It was not fuel prices. Again, I am sure you know this, but fuel was always a pass through expense for everyone - billed back to and paid by Delta ultimately and in full, as part of all the agreements. so none of the regional carriers competed on fuel price. The only variable costs were labor and infrastructure.
Comair shut down because it was more expensive to operate than the other carriers, in part because rates for pilots, flight attendants, and office staff were more expensive then everyone. Some also feel Delta was extracting a bit of revenge over that contract, signed after an 89 day pilot strike. So yeah, Comair was shut down over high costs, including a great pilot contract.
To say otherwise is to ignore what happened and try to bend it to fit your point.
Comair already had lots of 70/90s, for example - but they were put out to bid, Comair could not bid competitively (infrastructure cost, including high salaries), and they were awarded to other carriers. Those aircraft were moved from Comair to other carriers PRIOR to the shutdown.
Keep in mind, Comair was not competing with Delta or Delta pilots on cost; they were competing with Go-jet, Mesa, Freedom, etc. Guess who could fly the same routes cheaper?
It was not fuel prices. Again, I am sure you know this, but fuel was always a pass through expense for everyone - billed back to and paid by Delta ultimately and in full, as part of all the agreements. so none of the regional carriers competed on fuel price. The only variable costs were labor and infrastructure.
Comair shut down because it was more expensive to operate than the other carriers, in part because rates for pilots, flight attendants, and office staff were more expensive then everyone. Some also feel Delta was extracting a bit of revenge over that contract, signed after an 89 day pilot strike. So yeah, Comair was shut down over high costs, including a great pilot contract.
To say otherwise is to ignore what happened and try to bend it to fit your point.
One point to make, just because fuel is a "pass through expense" does not mean fuel is free. Someone is paying for it and in this case that is Delta. The same company that made decisions on RJ operators, their fleets, and their contracts.
It is not in dispute that Comair already had lots of 70/90 seaters and I am sorry if you somehow misunderstood that in which I wrote.
Either way, at this point it doesn't matter. This is all water under the bridge and the only point I was trying to make here has been lost in the details or perception.
06-10-2019, 02:00 PM
#63
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by skywatch
.... Comair was not competing with Delta or Delta pilots on cost; they were competing with Go-jet, Mesa, Freedom, etc. Guess who could fly the same routes cheaper?
It was not fuel prices. Again, I am sure you know this, but fuel was always a pass through expense for everyone - billed back to and paid by Delta ultimately and in full, as part of all the agreements. so none of the regional carriers competed on fuel price. The only variable costs were labor and infrastructure.
Comair shut down because it was more expensive to operate than the other carriers, in part because rates for pilots, flight attendants, and office staff were more expensive then everyone. Some also feel Delta was extracting a bit of revenge over that contract, signed after an 89 day pilot strike. So yeah, Comair was shut down over high costs, including a great pilot contract.
To say otherwise is to ignore what happened and try to bend it to fit your point.
It was not fuel prices. Again, I am sure you know this, but fuel was always a pass through expense for everyone - billed back to and paid by Delta ultimately and in full, as part of all the agreements. so none of the regional carriers competed on fuel price. The only variable costs were labor and infrastructure.
Comair shut down because it was more expensive to operate than the other carriers, in part because rates for pilots, flight attendants, and office staff were more expensive then everyone. Some also feel Delta was extracting a bit of revenge over that contract, signed after an 89 day pilot strike. So yeah, Comair was shut down over high costs, including a great pilot contract.
To say otherwise is to ignore what happened and try to bend it to fit your point.
You comment "labor and infrastructure" costs only variable, yet blame the employees including a "great pilot contract" as reasons shutdown.
What are the other details over infrastructure? They have zero impact on costs? I get high costs, reads like you fault pilots et al for fighting for higher wages. Takes guts and pain to keep it a workable profession. Many simply ride the coat tails. Oh well. Had they accepted management race to bottom to lower wages and longer hours, the would have survived appears to be your belief.
SD
06-11-2019, 08:16 AM
#65
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Were/are you a former Comair pilot on property at shutdown? manager? non union? anti union? Just trying to ascertain your expertise and perspective.
You comment "labor and infrastructure" costs only variable, yet blame the employees including a "great pilot contract" as reasons shutdown.
What are the other details over infrastructure? They have zero impact on costs? I get high costs, reads like you fault pilots et al for fighting for higher wages. Takes guts and pain to keep it a workable profession. Many simply ride the coat tails. Oh well. Had they accepted management race to bottom to lower wages and longer hours, the would have survived appears to be your belief.
SD
You comment "labor and infrastructure" costs only variable, yet blame the employees including a "great pilot contract" as reasons shutdown.
What are the other details over infrastructure? They have zero impact on costs? I get high costs, reads like you fault pilots et al for fighting for higher wages. Takes guts and pain to keep it a workable profession. Many simply ride the coat tails. Oh well. Had they accepted management race to bottom to lower wages and longer hours, the would have survived appears to be your belief.
SD
My point being, the higher costs of the pilots (and the higher costs of lots of other things too) is part of it. I don't hate the player, I hate the game. The game is - eventually whoever can do it cheapest today is the more expensive guy tomorrow, and then someone who can do it cheaper gets the business. When you are mainline, you focus on finding new ways to grow revenue. When you are regional, completely dependent on the mainline for work, you don't control any of that so you cut costs or they find someone cheaper to do it. Crappy business model.
Answer for pilots isn't to accept crappy wages and never should be. Need to move on, get with the carriers that have a business model that supports pilot wages where they should be. That is a career airline.
06-12-2019, 06:18 AM
#69
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
$106 ph or the interest rate on a $40 million jet; or the purchase price, or the fleet size, or the hub structure?
My point is that pilot pay is such a small component of the total cost. However, as pilots, we somehow get wrapped up in the idea that it is the ONLY cost and I am afraid to say, you just made that point for me.
My point is that pilot pay is such a small component of the total cost. However, as pilots, we somehow get wrapped up in the idea that it is the ONLY cost and I am afraid to say, you just made that point for me.
Still, the Comair guys stood strong and got screwed by management for it. That’s the takeaway of it from an outsider. The whipsaw works. It worked again in 2014 against Eagle. After voting no repeatedly to concessions they were slowly being parted out, and the official word directly from Moaks mouth was Eagle is being shut down if you can’t get a deal. They’ll just continue transferring your flying to PDT and PSA and whatever vendor bids less
The sad fact is that the RLA never envisioned the outsourced regional business model; and that holding regional work groups to the same impossible strike requirements as a mainline simply ensures a whipsaw can continue. As PSA proved; eventually somebody will raise their hand to volunteer to fly for less to get more planes and quicker upgrades.... or a flow program they never had before that will actually let them flow sooner than Eagle guys who had been waiting a decade or more.
It is what it is. Get in, get your hours, get out. They can’t tell a Delta pilot to take concessions or we give your flying to United.... as long as they can do that at regionals, the whipsaw game will continue.
Last edited by Cujo665; 06-12-2019 at 06:28 AM.
06-12-2019, 09:49 AM
#70
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by Cujo665
My point was the RJ pilots are way more expensive on a per seat mile basis. CPA’s with regionals cover the contracted expenses in most cases. They all have similar expenses, don’t own anything, lease everything and except for holding a piece of paper from the DOT/FAA that says Air Carrier Certificate really aren’t anything more than a training and staffing company for somebody else.
Still, the Comair guys stood strong and got screwed by management for it. That’s the takeaway of it from an outsider. The whipsaw works. It worked again in 2014 against Eagle. After voting no repeatedly to concessions they were slowly being parted out, and the official word directly from Moaks mouth was Eagle is being shut down if you can’t get a deal. They’ll just continue transferring your flying to PDT and PSA and whatever vendor bids less
The sad fact is that the RLA never envisioned the outsourced regional business model; and that holding regional work groups to the same impossible strike requirements as a mainline simply ensures a whipsaw can continue. As PSA proved; eventually somebody will raise their hand to volunteer to fly for less to get more planes and quicker upgrades.... or a flow program they never had before that will actually let them flow sooner than Eagle guys who had been waiting a decade or more.
It is what it is. Get in, get your hours, get out. They can’t tell a Delta pilot to take concessions or we give your flying to United.... as long as they can do that at regionals, the whipsaw game will continue.
Still, the Comair guys stood strong and got screwed by management for it. That’s the takeaway of it from an outsider. The whipsaw works. It worked again in 2014 against Eagle. After voting no repeatedly to concessions they were slowly being parted out, and the official word directly from Moaks mouth was Eagle is being shut down if you can’t get a deal. They’ll just continue transferring your flying to PDT and PSA and whatever vendor bids less
The sad fact is that the RLA never envisioned the outsourced regional business model; and that holding regional work groups to the same impossible strike requirements as a mainline simply ensures a whipsaw can continue. As PSA proved; eventually somebody will raise their hand to volunteer to fly for less to get more planes and quicker upgrades.... or a flow program they never had before that will actually let them flow sooner than Eagle guys who had been waiting a decade or more.
It is what it is. Get in, get your hours, get out. They can’t tell a Delta pilot to take concessions or we give your flying to United.... as long as they can do that at regionals, the whipsaw game will continue.
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