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Old 07-14-2019, 10:03 PM   #91  
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Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
Keep patting yourself on the back buddy.
You’ll need to as nobody else is doing it.
From the cheap seats again...why would I expect anything else?
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:40 PM   #92  
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We've made mistakes. We've had some successes. Emotions are running high, and that's something people can capitalize on. I guess I'd ask what we can do to make you feel like you're one of us and we're here for you?
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:57 PM   #93  
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Also, citing our failures and errors is helpful if those citations also come with recommendations. What recommendations do you have?
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:00 AM   #94  
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Also, citing our failures and errors is helpful if those citations also come with recommendations. What recommendations do you have?
For starters:

- stop with the “if you’re not with us you’re against us attitude” that seems to be so prevalent.
- stop trying to crucify and silence people that are critical of the union.
They’re critical for good reason.
- stop with the bombastic overly adversarial dramatic emails and just stick to fact in communications.
- stop with that ATAM nonsense

We all pay union dues and stop trying to make me feel it’s “protection money”.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:03 AM   #95  
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Man talk about not being able to take what you dish out.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:11 AM   #96  
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Man talk about not being able to take what you dish out.
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Old 07-15-2019, 06:55 AM   #97  
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The part where you demand an immediate result without having the patience to build the winning case.
First of all, I am not your enemy. Second, where did you ever get the idea from a former cop that I would ever suggest that a party would EVER show up in court unprepared�� Third, sorry about the length of this response.

As an outside observer, with considerable negotiating experience, I have some thoughts. Your no OT strategy, and the assault on the internet, as I have stated before, was in my opinion the perfect strategy. Unfortunately, you are dealing with a management, who in my opinion, makes the best airline negotiators pale in comparison. I do not envy your position. The strategy did not work and at this point it appears that you have lost this battle.

Question becomes how to salvage the best deal. I hope that ego’s are not so big, (not writing about you here), that some “off the books” talks by appropriate stakeholders are in progress, behind the scenes, and that a foundation of an exit plan is in motion.

You know more than anybody, what the true status of negotiations is. I am suggesting that perhaps, if things are as bleak as they appear, that you negotiate an end to this, and get what you can. Emphasis on a short term contract.

If things are as bad as they appear, (fake internet news and all), it would be irresponsible for your local union management to continue on course. Besides the financial stress you are placing on your members, think about the emotional stress, and the demise of your company that is happening here. It does not appear that you have the power to bring the company to their knees and to the table as has been historically the 1224 method. A strategy that works with trucking companies, but has never worked for pilot groups, as the RLA is a pain to work with.

Lastly, JK, stop defending your self and your actions. Folks are intelligent and can see what is going on here. You are doing a job that no one else wants. That’s why nobody runs against you. Believe me I have been there. The best you can hope for is that they respect and eventually thank you for guiding this pilot group thru the storm.

Good luck and please get this done. Lives are literally at stake as you continue to have to hire some pilots who do not have the skills to be in the position they have been placed in.
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:06 AM   #98  
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Tired Soul, I think you are an intelligent man and like reading your opinion on matters. However, you position on this is very destructive. Your statements are horrible and Quite frankly, beneath you. Even if you don’t work for AAWW this is not appropriate. Bashing a union local in public, is never a good move. There is no going back from your statements if you have to work with these gentlemen in the future. Just because you may be right, does not mean you should verbalize it.
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Old 07-15-2019, 07:18 AM   #99  
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First of all, I am not your enemy. Second, where did you ever get the idea from a former cop that I would ever suggest that a party would EVER show up in court unprepared�� Third, sorry about the length of this response.

As an outside observer, with considerable negotiating experience, I have some thoughts. Your no OT strategy, and the assault on the internet, as I have stated before, was in my opinion the perfect strategy. Unfortunately, you are dealing with a management, who in my opinion, makes the best airline negotiators pale in comparison. I do not envy your position. The strategy did not work and at this point it appears that you have lost this battle.

Question becomes how to salvage the best deal. I hope that ego’s are not so big, (not writing about you here), that some “off the books” talks by appropriate stakeholders are in progress, behind the scenes, and that a foundation of an exit plan is in motion.

You know more than anybody, what the true status of negotiations is. I am suggesting that perhaps, if things are as bleak as they appear, that you negotiate an end to this, and get what you can. Emphasis on a short term contract.

If things are as bad as they appear, (fake internet news and all), it would be irresponsible for your local union management to continue on course. Besides the financial stress you are placing on your members, think about the emotional stress, and the demise of your company that is happening here. It does not appear that you have the power to bring the company to their knees and to the table as has been historically the 1224 method. A strategy that works with trucking companies, but has never worked for pilot groups, as the RLA is a pain to work with.

Lastly, JK, stop defending your self and your actions. Folks are intelligent and can see what is going on here. You are doing a job that no one else wants. That’s why nobody runs against you. Believe me I have been there. The best you can hope for is that they respect and eventually thank you for guiding this pilot group thru the storm.

Good luck and please get this done. Lives are literally at stake as you continue to have to hire some pilots who do not have the skills to be in the position they have been placed in.
I appreciate the respectful response. We view our leverage in a vastly different light than what I gathered from your post but I understand how our position may not look that way from outside of the company.

We currently have three B-777s parked and two B737-800s parked all due to lack of crew. This is already on a systemwide reduced schedule due to staffing issues. Last month broke the all-time record for the most open time trips issued in a given month and this month looks to be significantly higher than June.

Our no-show rate for new-hire classes is greater than 50% and our failure rate for the new-hires that do show is 30% at Atlas Air and 60% at Southern Air. (No spin here, these are the hard facts)

We literally have nothing to lose here. Our only option by management is an extension of our current CBA (in terms of signing the same language into the next CBA). We find this completely unacceptable and would be hard-pressed to find any pilot that would disagree with us on this once we explained what is really at stake and what is really being offered.

I think it would be a challenge to find anyone, no matter how management friendly, that thinks it is reasonable to sign a CBA to extend our current CBA work rules and pay. A CBA where we make 50-60% less than industry standard with the rest of the industry starting their next negotiation cycle in a positive pattern bargaining environment.

If/when management decides to move with a reasonable mindset, we can get a CBA negotiated in three weeks or less.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:23 AM   #100  
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Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville View Post
I appreciate the respectful response. We view our leverage in a vastly different light than what I gathered from your post but I understand how our position may not look that way from outside of the company.

We currently have three B-777s parked and two B737-800s parked all due to lack of crew. This is already on a systemwide reduced schedule due to staffing issues. Last month broke the all-time record for the most open time trips issued in a given month and this month looks to be significantly higher than June.

Our no-show rate for new-hire classes is greater than 50% and our failure rate for the new-hires that do show is 30% at Atlas Air and 60% at Southern Air. (No spin here, these are the hard facts)

We literally have nothing to lose here. Our only option by management is an extension of our current CBA (in terms of signing the same language into the next CBA). We find this completely unacceptable and would be hard-pressed to find any pilot that would disagree with us on this once we explained what is really at stake and what is really being offered.

I think it would be a challenge to find anyone, no matter how management friendly, that thinks it is reasonable to sign a CBA to extend our current CBA work rules and pay. A CBA where we make 50-60% less than industry standard with the rest of the industry starting their next negotiation cycle in a positive pattern bargaining environment.

If/when management decides to move with a reasonable mindset, we can get a CBA negotiated in three weeks or less.
Seems reasonable. TiredSoul, what's your suggestion? Is this not a reasonable position to take?
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