DC8DRIVER

I do love this idea though!

If only there were some sort of group that these 30 something aviators with the great ideas could join. Some sort of structure that would offer resources for support and communication. Some sort of organization that might have a unifying theme. Possibly a Maybe a group that we have heard of who has already taken steps toward moving the company in a safer, better, and more rewarding direction and offers then significant job protections ...

Hmmmm ... if only there were something like that around here somewhere ...

NightIP

110%.

The current group of EXCO and Stewards finish their terms at the end of 2020. Anyone who feels they can get in there and get the Company to the table is free to run and take their spots.

RyeMex

DC8, I would absolutely prefer to not air our dirty laundry on a public forum. Unfortunately, we seem to be the only pilot group in the industry who thinks that having an official Union message board is unnecessary. I, as well as many others, have voiced concern about the lack of a private forum where Union members can communicate and interact. Unfortunately, MG and a few other members of the ExCo seem to believe that a Union forum is not in their best interests. So, here we are.

Also, having a slightly dissenting opinion does not make myself, or most other folks, "anti-union". I am a strong believer in unionism, and it is precisely my desire for us to have a strong and unified pilot group that leads me to be so frustrated with some of the mistakes that we apparently refuse to learn from.

I want a better, stronger Union. But we will never accomplish those aims unless we are willing to take a sober look in the mirror and recognize where our faults are.

DC8DRIVER

I absolutely agree with the sentiment that there should be a process of continuous improvement.

And if there is no appropriate forum then create one. Just keep it out of the public (and the company's) eye. Otherwise, your desire for a unified pilot group probably won't work.

The old union boards almost always devolved into the same few antagonists continuously posting untrue and damaging rants against the union officers with a blatant and non-stop anti-Teamster flame. These were neither productive nor informative nor true (by and large). How would you, were you on the EXCO, handle a situation like that; A continuous stream of negativity and falsehoods most of which were aimed directly at you?

Last, Although your remarks and ideas might not be as harsh and damaging as other's posts, a nameless mob will almost always say things online under the cloak of anonymity that they would NEVER say in public let alone face to face with a fellow pilot.

It's just not an appropriate venue to conduct civilized and productive discussions. Case in point is the frequency that mods have to edit and shut down other threads on APC due to degenerated discussions and relentless attacks.

Elevation

I can tell I touched a nerve. I'm a little busy at the moment, but I will get back to address your points. Just wanted to let you know that you're not being ignored.

Edit:
Alright, I'm back and have some time. There's a lot to discuss, so I'll try to address your points individually. That means I'm going to be making a series of posts.

Elevation

Please correct me if Im wrong, but it seems you are saying the following:
-I am not part of the union or involved in any sort of effort from within.
-Public criticism accomplishes nothing.
-Public criticism of the exco undermines morale and hinders our ability to act.
-There is a misconception regarding the amount of support for the union leadership out there.

In fact I am not sitting on the sidelines. I am a union officer (until I get myself fired from my positions, that is).

Regarding public criticism, it actually accomplishes a lot, but is messy and is a tool of second-to-last resort. But first let's address the nature of support. Currently we're on track to deliver our pilots no meaningful results while berating them for asking questions. Morale is already low, and we're telling pilots "You're either with us or one of them.". Make no mistake, this drives pilots away from us. Ultimately this will break us. Blind adherence to this isn't support; it's enabling the downfall of our whole effort. We as union members and/or officers can't do this in good conscience.

Support is making sure we get to our goals and make necessary adjustments in time. This not only helps us achieve necessary goals; it also preserves the Exco members that you care so much about. Criticism brings issues forward which can then be fielded or dismissed by the Exco when they've got cooler heads. Constructive criticism IS support.

Regarding the amount of support for or against the Union, I don't think you actually believe there's that much support. You wouldn't be telling people "You're either with us or against us." if that were the case. I agree with you real assessment. Things are dicy. We can't afford any more foul-ups, cults of personality, etc. We have to do things right. See the previous points about the value of these discussions.

There's a silver lining, and that silver lining is you, DC8. You clearly care and are committed. You clearly have the energy to get a little feisty. Take a breath, scratch your chin for a while, and let's see what direction we need to move. Then let's effing do something. We need you.

Elevation

So you cite a lot of things which I earlier said are good things. But that doesn't mean we're good to go, generally. Communications within and between committees is still weak. Our ability to reach individual members in need is worse than it was a year ago. These will fester until we bring enough attention to them. We fired a committee chair for raising questions about the administration of a Facebook page. We then subsequently altered the way we administer that Facebook page. That guy was tireless in his work. We lost his efforts and support for what: Facebook? So, yeah, we have some big problems and they're costing us good people.

You cite emails, exco round-tables, etc. Those came about as a response to public and noisy criticism. If noisy criticism is what it takes to get our committees the tools they need, it's our job to make the noise. We also have to realize that we speak more through actions than anything. If we have to burn ourselves individually to save the greater organization, so be it.

Through 30 years in various unions you've seen things go right and you've seen things go wrong. I've got a little bit of experience with things going right and wrong too. Giving people ultimatums, saying "Its us or them!", or telephoning someone to make a threat that's off-record makes enemies.

Elevation

So, third and final response:

Loyalty is a concept often discussed in these threads, but I don't think we really understand it. Our allegiance is to our membership. The desire to get defensive in the face of critique in understandable. In fact, it's even noble. You're working with guys on a project, sharing similar experiences and someone is saying what you're doing isn't good enough, is juvenile or, in my case, we haven't acted when needed. Anyone would naturally get an impulse to defend their friends. This means you're a good guy.

The problem is that our better impulses are getting us to do some nasty things. Pretty soon those better impulses have us acting in ways that are diametrically opposed to the interests of our membership. This is why that line where I say we need to call off the dogs is so important. We need to walk back from this junkyard attitude if we're going to get anything done.

You're going to be here after I get removed. We need you to take a few breaths before you jump down our people's throats.

CardboardCutout

Interesting discussion. I don't work there, so I won't put my oar in the water on the internal politics. I will, however, observe that it's the 21st century and therefore pilots are going to talk about work stuff on the internet. This is inevitable. Asking them not to talk in public and then refusing to provide a place for them to talk in private because you don't like what they wind up saying..well, that is a stupid, losing effort from the git go.