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GT 3591 and Atlas Managment

Old 07-16-2020, 03:59 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
I’m not at Atlas, I’ve never been at Atlas in any position. I was merely trying to figure out why this FO was hired. Even without the hidden failures there were red flags. I haven’t failed any training at all but I can understand why someone might. But this guy had too many too recently. Shouldn’t have been touched. I guess I’m scratching my head trying to figure it out. Maybe I need to get on APC more and see the under current. 🙄
As for the Colgan crash, I view this one as worse. This was initiated at 6,300’. Within seconds it was not recoverable. Colgan there were other issues- poor training (requiring a stall recovery within a specified altitude) fatigue, illness, lower altitude. This one... I’m just trying to wrap my head around why this guy was hired. Maybe it was a good thing he wasn’t in a full EMB-175.
Yes, it was a good thing he wasn't in a full EMB-175. But can you imagine the congressional investigations and hearings that would have been held had this been a passenger airplane with dozens or hundreds of fatalities. Unfortunately congress, the media, and the American public don't really care that much about this accident because it was just a cargo airplane with 3 people on board. The public scrutiny over this would have been absolutely crazy had it been a passenger plane.
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Old 07-16-2020, 04:29 PM
  #12  
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A full E-175? We're fortunate that it wasn't a full pax 767 with 250 U.S. service members on board. Atlas does pax ops as well, and it's the same pilots rotating between cargo and pax flights. The only thing that kept this from being a fully loaded passenger 767 was blind, dumb luck.
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Old 07-16-2020, 05:23 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Winston View Post
Fixed that for you.

Choosing applicants by any criteria other than their flight-related knowledge, skills, and ability causes bad things to happen.
yeah, flying is a meritocracy. Alrighty then.
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Old 07-16-2020, 05:27 PM
  #14  
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The big elephant in the room is Amazon. They no doubt put pressure on Atlas’s management and drove them to hire anybody who could fill the seats. I am so surprised that the NTSB didn’t find any corporate fault here.

Yes the Captain is at fault but the First Officer panicked and put that plane in an unrecoverable situation very quickly.

It is a sad situation for everyone involved. Worse, the NTSB is banging hard about why they need cameras in the cockpits. I’m sorry but my family and friends as well as strangers will never see my demise via a camera in the cockpit. It will be INOP or obscured.
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Old 07-16-2020, 05:51 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox View Post
The big elephant in the room is Amazon. They no doubt put pressure on Atlas’s management and drove them to hire anybody who could fill the seats. I am so surprised that the NTSB didn’t find any corporate fault here.

Yes the Captain is at fault but the First Officer panicked and put that plane in an unrecoverable situation very quickly.

It is a sad situation for everyone involved. Worse, the NTSB is banging hard about why they need cameras in the cockpits. I’m sorry but my family and friends as well as strangers will never see my demise via a camera in the cockpit. It will be INOP or obscured.
Agreed. I'm not opposed to video in the cockpit, but there were some pretty egregious leaks of CVR data, especially before about 2000.

We let a lot go unanswered here. Disgraceful.
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Old 07-16-2020, 06:51 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
I agree with this generally, but discussions about causal factors, fault and blame really spread out like oil on water.

Instructors and Check Airmen went along with things. When it comes to adopting improved training and safety practices we in the union frequently say "Well, the company said no, so there was nothing we could do." when in fact we had a number of proposals were held up in the executive council. As individuals we covered for each other. As a collective both in management and in the union we used to speak highly of the people who passed this FO onward, and we used to say the DE who failed him was a persnickety nerd.

This is why the first 6 months after a fatal crash you see the best in people. After that you see the worst. People with experience dealing with other, fatal crashes will know that there's a role for advocacy during investigations. A union's role is to advocate for full truth. So all the grand statements, pins and memorials when people are paying attention amount to nothing. What matters are the decisions made when it comes time to put your promotion on the line.

As an example, a lot of work from the pilots and others went into the investigation around Eagle 4184. For this crash, what did we really do? The Exco member in charge of safety quietly applied for an assistant chief pilot position during this investigation. We'll say that this person's character would never let him compromise our pilots' interests. Let's get real.

Regardless, this investigation is done. The time for outrage and vigor was 2 years ago. Now's the time to look forward. We failed each other here. Let's get ahead of the next crash.
You ever meet someone who thinks they know a lot, but in reality is an embarrassment to themselves. That’s this guy. This is coming from someone who falsely accused a crew of “almost crashing a jet” in TPE. Anything he says is nothing but stupidity.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:45 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Three Green View Post
Racist much?
The racists don’t even realize they are racist, and would be offended if you called them what they are.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:00 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Three Green View Post
yeah, flying is a meritocracy. Alrighty then.
No, I’ll grant you that it is not...

But we can both agree that it should be, right?
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Old 07-16-2020, 11:51 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox View Post
........... Worse, the NTSB is banging hard about why they need cameras in the cockpits. I’m sorry but my family and friends as well as strangers will never see my demise via a camera in the cockpit. It will be INOP or obscured.
I was surprised at the NTSB push for cameras again. Realistically, what's the value other than making their job a tiny bit easier? They have the FDR and from that can create the animation they did showing control movement, throttles, etc. Did they reach an accurate conclusion? Yes.
They seem to do a pretty good job finding the cause, lessons, recommendations, etc. with the tools they currently have.
What would have changed in the course of this investigation had there been a camera recording the action?
Not much from what I can see.
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:08 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
I was surprised at the NTSB push for cameras again. Realistically, what's the value other than making their job a tiny bit easier? They have the FDR and from that can create the animation they did showing control movement, throttles, etc. Did they reach an accurate conclusion? Yes.
They seem to do a pretty good job finding the cause, lessons, recommendations, etc. with the tools they currently have.
What would have changed in the course of this investigation had there been a camera recording the action?
Not much from what I can see.
How do you know they reached an accurate conclusion? Were you there during the crash?

A camera can show who did what rather than just "something was done"
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