Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-12-2021, 01:42 PM   #91  
Gets Weekends Off
 
goinaround's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 468
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vroll1800 View Post
Key question: Has the present $10K DC cap been removed or modified ? If the later, what has hard dollar cap been raised to ?

If I'm understanding the $290K income reference limit correctly, and my public school math is still good, any K4 pilot making $290K or greater would get a $17,400 DC contribution the first year of the contract, rising to $20,300 2 years later under a no cap scenario. That would be good improvement over the current, 5%/$10K cap "pay to play" system if the preceding sentence is true.
Or a 3rd year FO who makes $150K about $9,000.
goinaround is offline  
Old 01-12-2021, 03:09 PM   #92  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Lockheed's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by goinaround View Post
Or a 3rd year FO who makes $150K about $9,000.
hopefully tomorrow or the next day we have the pay tables and other info with a method for each pilot to compute how this possible cba will affect them financially going forward
Lockheed is offline  
Old 01-12-2021, 07:15 PM   #93  
Gets Weekends Off
 
MoarAlpha's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockheed View Post
hopefully tomorrow or the next day we have the pay tables and other info with a method for each pilot to compute how this possible cba will affect them financially going forward
You heard details will be released soon?
MoarAlpha is offline  
Old 01-12-2021, 08:29 PM   #94  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B747-400 FO
Posts: 6
Default Irs limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockheed View Post
you are correct
only IRS maximum caps
$290k 2020
$295k 2021
$300k 2022
$305k 2023
​​​​etc...
might have those numbers 1 yr off..cant remember
I’m confused...are you saying those are the numbers that people will be earning at the top of the pay scale? Or that those are the income levels where you max out a 401K? If it’s the latter, you’re not even close.

the 2021 IRS annual 401K contribution limit for an individual (the portion YOU contribute) is $19,500. The max on all contributions (what both you AND the company contribute) is $58,000.

If you contribute $0, the company can contribute $58,000. If the company insists you pull your weight and max out your $19,500, the max company contribution would be $38,500.

A pilot making $300,000 would hit the IRS 401K limits at either:
- A Direct Contribution of 19.3%
- A DC of 6.3%, plus a matching of 6% (6 from them and six from you
- Matching at a 2-to-1 ratio

A DC of 6% doesn’t come anywhere close. At a DC of 6%, you have to make $967K/year before the IRS caps come into play.


If it was a DC of 6% *on top of the matching we already have*, that’s another story.
2.5% pay increase and a 1% retirement increase may not even keep up with inflation. The Consumer Price Index (CPI) for 2019 was 2.3%, and may be lower in 2020 only because of the crash in oil prices. But with all of the stimulus money that has been printed, I’d honestly rather have annual raises pegged to the CPI over the next few years than the meager 2.5% raise being offered (the CPI would just be flat pay of what we have now by buying power, not even a raise in real terms). Then take the meat of our “raise” in a vastly improved retirement, more in line with the 16% industry standard.
A 1% (eventual 2%) increase is not a “vast improvement” in retirement. While the company has made record money this year running us ragged and sending out daily emails with a dozen OT offerings.
There better be some amazing QOL offerings to make this anything other than a slap in the face, taking advantage that we’re in a disadvantaged bargaining position due to Coronavirus furloughs at the majors.
Davidmon5 is offline  
Old 01-13-2021, 04:07 AM   #95  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Globemaster2827's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhaleWrangler View Post
NO COMPANY MATCH that's gone just the percentage DC.
Oh.......... Yeah.... I'd vote that down for sure. That's still much better than what you had and headed in the right direction though!
Globemaster2827 is offline  
Old 01-13-2021, 11:41 AM   #96  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Lockheed's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidmon5 View Post
I’m confused...are you saying those are the numbers that people will be earning at the top of the pay scale? Or that those are the income levels where you max out a 401K? If it’s the latter, you’re not even close.

the 2021 IRS annual 401K contribution limit for an individual (the portion YOU contribute) is $19,500. The max on all contributions (what both you AND the company contribute) is $58,000.

If you contribute $0, the company can contribute $58,000. If the company insists you pull your weight and max out your $19,500, the max company contribution would be $38,500.

A pilot making $300,000 would hit the IRS 401K limits at either:
- A Direct Contribution of 19.3%
- A DC of 6.3%, plus a matching of 6% (6 from them and six from you
- Matching at a 2-to-1 ratio

A DC of 6% doesn’t come anywhere close. At a DC of 6%, you have to make $967K/year before the IRS caps come into play.


If it was a DC of 6% *on top of the matching we already have*, that’s another story.
2.5% pay increase and a 1% retirement increase may not even keep up with inflation. The Consumer Price Index (CPI) for 2019 was 2.3%, and may be lower in 2020 only because of the crash in oil prices. But with all of the stimulus money that has been printed, I’d honestly rather have annual raises pegged to the CPI over the next few years than the meager 2.5% raise being offered (the CPI would just be flat pay of what we have now by buying power, not even a raise in real terms). Then take the meat of our “raise” in a vastly improved retirement, more in line with the 16% industry standard.
A 1% (eventual 2%) increase is not a “vast improvement” in retirement. While the company has made record money this year running us ragged and sending out daily emails with a dozen OT offerings.
There better be some amazing QOL offerings to make this anything other than a slap in the face, taking advantage that we’re in a disadvantaged bargaining position due to Coronavirus furloughs at the majors.
There are several IRS 401(k) limitations
one of them is 401(a)(17) where the maximum employee income that an employer can contribute to an employees 401(k) account is spelled out - the Maximum income for such employer contributions in 2021 is $290,000

So in our situation if a pilot made $350,000 (which many do) he would get $290,000 x 6% or $17,400 in non-elective 401(k) contribution

I hope this clears up your confusion....
Lockheed is offline  
Old 01-13-2021, 11:59 AM   #97  
Gets Weekends Off
 
gollum's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 305
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidmon5 View Post
I’m confused...are you saying those are the numbers that people will be earning at the top of the pay scale? Or that those are the income levels where you max out a 401K? If it’s the latter, you’re not even close.

the 2021 IRS annual 401K contribution limit for an individual (the portion YOU contribute) is $19,500. The max on all contributions (what both you AND the company contribute) is $58,000.

If you contribute $0, the company can contribute $58,000. If the company insists you pull your weight and max out your $19,500, the max company contribution would be $38,500.

A pilot making $300,000 would hit the IRS 401K limits at either:
- A Direct Contribution of 19.3%
- A DC of 6.3%, plus a matching of 6% (6 from them and six from you
- Matching at a 2-to-1 ratio

A DC of 6% doesn’t come anywhere close. At a DC of 6%, you have to make $967K/year before the IRS caps come into play.


If it was a DC of 6% *on top of the matching we already have*, that’s another story.
2.5% pay increase and a 1% retirement increase may not even keep up with inflation. The Consumer Price Index (CPI) for 2019 was 2.3%, and may be lower in 2020 only because of the crash in oil prices. But with all of the stimulus money that has been printed, I’d honestly rather have annual raises pegged to the CPI over the next few years than the meager 2.5% raise being offered (the CPI would just be flat pay of what we have now by buying power, not even a raise in real terms). Then take the meat of our “raise” in a vastly improved retirement, more in line with the 16% industry standard.
A 1% (eventual 2%) increase is not a “vast improvement” in retirement. While the company has made record money this year running us ragged and sending out daily emails with a dozen OT offerings.
There better be some amazing QOL offerings to make this anything other than a slap in the face, taking advantage that we’re in a disadvantaged bargaining position due to Coronavirus furloughs at the majors.
there is an IRS income limit of 290,000 off of which to base 401k contributions. Any income over this amount gets nothing.

with just 6% direct contribution the most the company could put into your 401k is 290,000 * 6% = 17,400.

you could make $1M and with a 6% DC the number above would not change.
gollum is offline  
Old 01-13-2021, 11:51 PM   #98  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B747-400 FO
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gollum View Post
there is an IRS income limit of 290,000 off of which to base 401k contributions. Any income over this amount gets nothing.

with just 6% direct contribution the most the company could put into your 401k is 290,000 * 6% = 17,400.

you could make $1M and with a 6% DC the number above would not change.
got it...found the IRS page shortly after posting.
So it’s only 6% and there is a “cap” after all ($17,400 for 2021). All the more reason to have a higher percentage, which would also raise the IRS cap closer to the $58,000.

The only real “win” I see is the removal of the $10K cap, which only really benefits mid-to-senior captains. Just a cost of living increase for all FOs, junior captains, and mid level 767 Captains.

interesting tactic...trying to buy off the senior guys...when the majority of the company is junior due to our expansion.

Here’s the IRS page for the curious:
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans...e-annual-limit
Davidmon5 is offline  
Old 01-14-2021, 12:05 AM   #99  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B747-400 FO
Posts: 6
Default

Another concern is the automated scheduling system that they have already contracted but have not implemented. A major selling point is basing the compensation estimates off a 85 hour PCH average (again leaving the 767 guys out of the equation).
AL builds the lines by hand. It’s overwhelming work for one person and there are many inefficiencies. There are some very high time lines and some very low time lines.

As soon as this contract is signed, they’ll pull the trigger on the new software. The lines will be built for much more efficient utilization. Receiving schedules last minute from customers will no longer matter, as long as they get the request before the bid package is released she can include them, and they will be incorporated in minutes.
Almost everyone will be flying damned near their 64 hours, and I expect us to stay on our lines much more often.
So a lot of people are going to be doing the math on this contract based off the 100 hours they have been averaging this year, not the 65 they will be averaging.
Davidmon5 is offline  
Old 01-14-2021, 12:09 AM   #100  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B747-400 FO
Posts: 6
Default

Now that we are past the amenable date, and if this offer does get a resounding “no” vote (especially from the 767 guys and FOs that have been slighted), what is the legality of the union officially asking us not to fly OT? I have a feeling that two or three weeks of no Over Time would immediately bring them back to the table with a serious offer, given how busy we are.
Davidmon5 is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? Guard Dude Delta 200129 01-11-2021 01:50 PM
C-171 CA Rep election Birddog United 236 08-11-2016 08:55 AM
Another News Ariticle Ref Eagle's Shortage (Printed 09-01-07) Lbell911 Regional 23 04-22-2012 11:33 AM
So you want to be a pilot? Industry Overview HSLD Flight Schools and Training 2 05-14-2006 10:07 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:00 AM.