Hawaiian Freighters starting up Amazon Cargo
06-21-2022, 08:28 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,347
Amazon isn't going to telegraph their strategic decisions before they are made.
Adding more contractors simply diversifies their service options and puts them under less pressure from organized labor. Beyond that who knows what will happen?
So whether we see an expansion or reshuffling of who does what, I wouldn't read too far into these announcements.
Adding more contractors simply diversifies their service options and puts them under less pressure from organized labor. Beyond that who knows what will happen?
So whether we see an expansion or reshuffling of who does what, I wouldn't read too far into these announcements.
06-21-2022, 11:27 AM
#32
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Joined APC: May 2013
Position: No Hats No Jackets No PAX
Posts: 1,503
^^^^^ Definitely ^^^^^ Business is good to have and not all business is created equal except for chasing bottom dollar operational costs depending on what service you are intending to provide and the customer base you are serving. Amazon is cut rate bottom dollar and provides minimal profits in comparison to other areas in the cargo industry. Still, minimal profit provides the ability to survive and possibly expand depending on management. That’s the delineating factor - “management.” Unfortunately, no one here can clear the smoke-n-mirror routine.
06-21-2022, 12:42 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by Geronimo4497
The aircraft leases through Titan are for 10 years. The CMI agreement is for 7, extendable to 10. So, Atlas pilots doing the flying of those aircraft could theoretically start winding down in 2023. Who knows if that will be the case or not.
06-21-2022, 03:33 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 493
I'm not sure if I started this or not, but I should just say that my point was not that Amazon flying was going to go away, but rather that the significant and regular expansion was likely to slow in the future, and significantly so. And I think that's realistic.
With regard to the length of the CMI agreements, I think the actual number of years is basically irrelevant. Like most CMI agreements, these are terminable for convenience, meaning that Amazon can for no reason other than its own desires terminate them on something like six months notice. Amazon is stuck with the leases, but who operates the aircraft is always going to be something that they have complete control over. And that's probably a good allocation of risk. Neither Atlas nor ATSG at the time had the desire to take on the obligation to provide 20 aircraft for an unknown period of time. By making the leases 10 years at Atlas, Atlas put the capital risk on to Amazon, and took the operational risk with the CMI contracts.
With the exception of spanking Atlas at one point by pulling two aircraft and adding a vendor on the 737s when Southern was a goatrope, Amazon has basically danced with the ones that brought them, and seems equally happy with ATI and Atlas. I don't see any likelihood that there will be a significant shift of aircraft from one operator to another at the end of the CMI agreements, unless somebody decides to be really unreasonable when negotiating the future.
With regard to the length of the CMI agreements, I think the actual number of years is basically irrelevant. Like most CMI agreements, these are terminable for convenience, meaning that Amazon can for no reason other than its own desires terminate them on something like six months notice. Amazon is stuck with the leases, but who operates the aircraft is always going to be something that they have complete control over. And that's probably a good allocation of risk. Neither Atlas nor ATSG at the time had the desire to take on the obligation to provide 20 aircraft for an unknown period of time. By making the leases 10 years at Atlas, Atlas put the capital risk on to Amazon, and took the operational risk with the CMI contracts.
With the exception of spanking Atlas at one point by pulling two aircraft and adding a vendor on the 737s when Southern was a goatrope, Amazon has basically danced with the ones that brought them, and seems equally happy with ATI and Atlas. I don't see any likelihood that there will be a significant shift of aircraft from one operator to another at the end of the CMI agreements, unless somebody decides to be really unreasonable when negotiating the future.
06-21-2022, 08:49 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by wjcandee
I'm not sure if I started this or not, but I should just say that my point was not that Amazon flying was going to go away, but rather that the significant and regular expansion was likely to slow in the future, and significantly so. And I think that's realistic.
With regard to the length of the CMI agreements, I think the actual number of years is basically irrelevant. Like most CMI agreements, these are terminable for convenience, meaning that Amazon can for no reason other than its own desires terminate them on something like six months notice. Amazon is stuck with the leases, but who operates the aircraft is always going to be something that they have complete control over. And that's probably a good allocation of risk. Neither Atlas nor ATSG at the time had the desire to take on the obligation to provide 20 aircraft for an unknown period of time. By making the leases 10 years at Atlas, Atlas put the capital risk on to Amazon, and took the operational risk with the CMI contracts.
With the exception of spanking Atlas at one point by pulling two aircraft and adding a vendor on the 737s when Southern was a goatrope, Amazon has basically danced with the ones that brought them, and seems equally happy with ATI and Atlas. I don't see any likelihood that there will be a significant shift of aircraft from one operator to another at the end of the CMI agreements, unless somebody decides to be really unreasonable when negotiating the future.
With regard to the length of the CMI agreements, I think the actual number of years is basically irrelevant. Like most CMI agreements, these are terminable for convenience, meaning that Amazon can for no reason other than its own desires terminate them on something like six months notice. Amazon is stuck with the leases, but who operates the aircraft is always going to be something that they have complete control over. And that's probably a good allocation of risk. Neither Atlas nor ATSG at the time had the desire to take on the obligation to provide 20 aircraft for an unknown period of time. By making the leases 10 years at Atlas, Atlas put the capital risk on to Amazon, and took the operational risk with the CMI contracts.
With the exception of spanking Atlas at one point by pulling two aircraft and adding a vendor on the 737s when Southern was a goatrope, Amazon has basically danced with the ones that brought them, and seems equally happy with ATI and Atlas. I don't see any likelihood that there will be a significant shift of aircraft from one operator to another at the end of the CMI agreements, unless somebody decides to be really unreasonable when negotiating the future.
06-22-2022, 04:51 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by RyeMex
”The dry leases will have a term of 10 years, while the CMI operations will be for seven years (with extension provisions for a total term of 10 years).”
The aircraft leases through Titan are for 10 years. The CMI agreement is for 7, extendable to 10. So, Atlas pilots doing the flying of those aircraft could theoretically start winding down in 2023. Who knows if that will be the case or not.
The aircraft leases through Titan are for 10 years. The CMI agreement is for 7, extendable to 10. So, Atlas pilots doing the flying of those aircraft could theoretically start winding down in 2023. Who knows if that will be the case or not.
10-21-2022, 07:43 AM
#40
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Left, right & center
Posts: 770
Originally Posted by Asci
Well this didn’t age well
On a related note, who here still believes that Amazon is looking to buy an airline?
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