Astar Picketing in ILN
 

Picketing 9.13 in Wilmington. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVCv9PvDeXU

5 years and no contract???

Your picketing isnt costing the company any money as long as the "wheels are turning".

Set a strike date and shut the place down.

5 years,,, Good grief!!!!!

Yeah. There's this small matter of getting released by the NMB.

It is good to see a pilot group stand together. It is high time that we start to take back what management has taken from us. I don't have a dog in the fight but I wish all the Astar boys and girls the best. Stand strong.

Infraction for flyinboxes
 

flyinboxes, check your PMs. Your post has been deleted. Feel free to try again if you can make your point without insulting another member. If not, don't post. It's that simple.

I was surprised not to see any gray uniforms marching in the video.
Don't they know that if you take concessions that they will too?
I wonder what the leadership is thinking there sometimes.

Maybe this will explain it...

http://www.nlrb.gov/research/decisio...1.htm&size=164


"In the present case, the tactical object of ALPA’s grievance and counterclaim is the air transportation service performed by the Teamsters pilots who work for ABX."

"ALPA’s actions “were an unambiguous attempt to force [DHL], a neutral employer, to cease doing business with [ABX]"

ALPA lost round one, but they're appealing. It's currently in the Ninth Circuit, US Court of Appeals.

I really dont understand the legal mumbo jumbo per se, but I'm guessing since DHL Airways (ASTAR) had a Scope agreement with DHL to fly all of the US freight (even though it would have been impossible for either pilot group to do once Airborne was in the fold and it is impossible now considering that ASTAR carries 40% of the freight with half the airplanes due to the incompatability of ABX's "C" cans with the rest of the world) that it would have been stupid for them not to protect what little they had so that they would not dissappear from the face of the earth when DHL bought Airborne? Was Astar supposed to sit back and watch everything go away? Wasn't Astar fighting DHL...not ABX and then ABX decided to jump in? There is no judge who would close ABX down. What are the Astar pilots to do? Were they supposed to lose everything and do nothing or fight for the scraps they have and try to protect them? Would that have made the ABX pilots happy? I try to put the shoe on the other foot for both sides of the fence and I see where this would make DHL very happy.....plus ABX and ASTAR MGT would make more money for management because the they would have the same ACMI agreement, pilots make less and management make more. All I know is that DHL, ABX & ASTAR love the odds right now because they are winning and the 2 pilot groups are losing because they are not at least appearing to have support for each other during contract negotiations. Fight all you want after you both have better contracts. When the dust settles...you will still have the same issues that will never be solved but your paychecks will be larger instead of concessionary.

I fully understand why an ABX or Astar pilot feels that the freight carried is rightfully theirs..

The fact is that ABX and Astar will always be there because DHL likes it that way...If ABX and ASTAR pilots don't at least have the appearance of unity ...you both will loose and have concessionary contracts (DHL, ABX & Astar management love that)

I fully respect both pilot groups...and you are both in tough positions. The only winners right now are your management groups.

Your union leaders should have a sit down and iron this out or the uninformed union members will speculate "what if's" until the next pilot group gets thrown in the mix (Polar...or others) and you all will be the losers.

The Teamster leadership has tried to sit down and talk. The Astar MEC is behind all the animosity between the two sides. Watch the video from Astar's picket party and tell us what the last frame is supposed to infer. Through no fault of their own Astar needed charters carrying their freight out of CVG because the management would not or could not grow the airline. ABX, even with c containers, was hauling their freight and were even buying airplanes.

Ok then...just forget about what I said. Good luck.

Is the NMB close to declaring an impasse...sorry if the info was mentioned before.

FF

We'll most likely find out on Sept. 22.

I did, check yours and thanks alot. Whalerider wasn't out of line, it was me....geez.

"Watch the video from Astar's picket party and tell us what the last frame is supposed to infer"


Would you believe that the "once a scab, never a Teamster" ad is actually a teamster ad made by teamsters for teamsters on a teamster website?

Those ABX guys ought to know their own ad's??? If they dont know their own ad campaigns...I'm starting to wonder what an uninformed ABX crewmember or Astar crewmember think it means.

When I saw that reference in the video (unless you are speaking of the Clockwerk Orange pic) as a tribute and reminder of what the Teamsters are apparently preaching to its own members.

I'll try to find the actual link on the specific Teamster website showing that Teamster made/endorsed ad and post it here.

This is the best I could do on short notice..

I have seen the same ad used in the Astar video on www.teamster.net

and here is another example:

http://www.iir.berkeley.edu/exhibit/kay/photo8.html

It's real simple Astar needs to can there Union and vote Teamsters in! Than we would be one big happy family :) pilots, mechanics, loaders, drivers, etc.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just trying to follow your logic.

If the Teamsters strike, they can put once a scab on the ALPA globe?

Well there ya go. Clearly we just needed to do what ABX, DHL and 1224 and there wouldn't have ever been a conflict. Your right. It's all DHL017's fault....all the animosity.

If you want to post on a picture of Pete Blessing's face, it's alright by me!

I don't think "once a scab" has ever been used as an ALPA slogan. But, if 1224 wants to use that, I could care less. We're not gonna scab 1224 work. Period. Problem is, they act like we already have.

No, they can't.

Because if they were to strike, ALPA council017 would honor that strike and we would tell them so months in advance and fully support fellow trade Unionist. And if you are going to attempt to use a quote, then use it correctly and not out of context. The Phrase "Once a scab, never a Teamster" is a Teamster rallying cry for support. This phrase was used in it's entirety over the shield and not just the word "scab".

If you would like to participate constructively in the discussion, it's cool. But please, don't try to fan the flames. Especially if, as you say, you don't have a dog in this fight.
FAJ

FAJ,

If you want flames and dogs just ask any of us 1224 members what we think of your youtube show. We don't need any reminders of our strike obligations from your group. We don't cross picket lines or fly struck work like some ALPA pilots. You and your MEC have severed relations to, possibly, the point of no return with our pilot group. It's a shame because you could have received "ALL" of our support, which is what you need. So keep playing your ALPA vs. Teamster political games and you'll find out soon enough where that will get you!

I think the use of Once a scab was a great idea...since it is an actual teamsters sloagan/ad and the teamsters preach it...and a union is about to strike across your ramp...I think it is very good logic and I hope the truth does not hurt. It should only be taken as an insult if you actually plan on not honoring your own words.

Put your money where your mouth is....practice what you preach.


If there were bad blood between the 2 pilot groups it is due to fabrications in thier own minds...or false information that the leaders are telling them...or just pure stupidity.


If there is bad blood because ALPA showed a video of solidarity and do the right thing reminder to Teamsters by showing one of their own ads....then the real truth must hurt and you are already justifying in your own minds by blaming the leadership.


"Those guys are A-hole's so lets justify scabbing" or "Its the leaderships fault...so lets justify scabbing" or "he did it..so I will too" are all terrible excuses for not doing the right thing.

I'm not saying anyone has said this....but I am trying to make a point. DO THE RIGHT THING because there is no justification other than that.

Funniest thing about it is that ALPA has more scabs than anyone. And the fact that if astar did strike, not a single person could be called a scab since all a strike would do is block anyone from flying Astars freight, not DHL's. Maybe Astar could file a suit to define "scabbing".

I guess the the truth hurts then....now I see why Astars use of an actual Teamster ad would cause pain & justification of whatever you want.

If you are hoping that when ASTAR strikes...ABX will just walk in and take what is rightfully theirs and ASTAR just goes away...then I can see why talks have broken down with leadership of Teamsters and ALPA.....because you just want Astar to go away no matter what the cost to your morals.

You are next and I can Garauntee that ALPA will honor your strike....even if you dont honor theirs.

I'm done...because it is like talking to a brick wall.

Good luck to everyone on both sides...I really mean it.

Hugh,
Your pretty good with computer graphics but your knowledge of the situation is lacking. It's not the Teamsters spouting off. This situation at Astar has become a political playing field for ALPA. ALPA may be facing decertification at U.S. Airways and United soon. They need to use the Astar cause to save face no matter who they tick off. Anyways, you should know what teamsters are all about after supporting the driver's strike at brown. No fabrications here, just plain simple truth.

HJ,

Yeah, just like the Delta pilots did during Comair's strike. Be careful what you guarantee!

Good luck to both pilot groups... both of you get together and do the right thing for your unions out in the middle of a corn field to ensure both of your futures are solid and DHL doesn't get the best of you. DHL is hoping that you will eat your own in order to keep their costs down by playing you against each other.

Thats the bottom line.

This is a tense time for everyone in ILN....so do the right thing.

I guess it is totally not up to your local leadership anyway....it is really up to Teamster President Jimmy Hoffa and ALPA President John Prater to figure out how both sides handle it.

Dont let this tense situation make you lose the professionalism and courtesy's both pilots give each other on a daily basis...whether it be on a jumpseat or on a webboard. Also remember there are extreem pilots who can & will spout off inflamitorys on both sides....but they do not reflect the thoughts or ideals of either pilot group as a whole.

"So keep playing your ALPA vs. Teamster political games and you'll find out soon enough where that will get you!"

Alright, soooo since ALPA doesn't play nice, as you see it, as far as your concerned there's no such thing as struck work, and you've got no problem flying anywhere DHL wants you to fly DHL boxes? Hope it doesn't come to that RB. I don't think that'd be pretty. Not threatening, I just think that might not work out too well in the long run. But hey.....yall do what ya gotta do. We're mentally prepared for that.

Not to cause problems but did Delta honor Comairs strike? That was an ALPA carrier on ALPA carrier comparison. Not sure of the specifics but if someone buys a ticket on Delta.com they do not care or even know if it is comair or delta, they just want to go to MCO. So in this scenario is it acceptable for delta to fly to the city served by comair hauling pax that were supposed to go on a comair flight. Is that considered scabbing? Not trying to flame just wondering how Delta got by the strike without scabbing? As a "line guy" I will support my union and hope that they support our Astar brothers. Again this could be resolved rather easily by agreeing to a common seniority list of the 2 groups. Make the list, agree in writing to it and then take it to all 3 management teams (Astar, Abx and DHL) and let them know they now are dealing with 1 pilot group. PERIOD..................:eek:

When I was on the Astar Labor Talks site watching the Vid, I found ALPA National's definition of of Stuck work in a PDF file there. This should be the gauge to adhere to by any Unionized Airline pilot to determine whether you are a SCAB or a Union member. I mean every airline pilot who will be called to fill Astars gap during the strike. DHL will call every airline from ABX to Kitty Hawk in order to keep the lift. This is not just a reminder to the Teamsters...but also other ALPA carriers.

http://astarlabortalks.com/pdf/117-2...e%20082307.pdf

Besides...if ASTAR wanted to screw ABX, all they would have to do is sign a concessionary contract and avoid a strike.

What it comes down to whether a pilot or pilot group (ALPA, TEMASTER, IPA, APA ...ect) hides behind the excuse of a TRO (a TRO will happen...you can bet the farm) when a strike does occur. When the dust settles...everyone will know who the SCABS are because it is spelled out in plain english.

IF A UNIONS LEADERSHIP TELLS IT'S MEMBERS TO FLY DEFINED STRUCK WORK THEN IT IS UP TO THOSE MEMBERS TO QUESTION ITS LEADERSHIPS ABILITIES. IF YOUR LEADERSHIP TELLS YOU TO FLY DEFINED STRUCK WORK...THEN YOUR LEADERSHIP SHOULD BE CONSIDERED VERY FLAWED. YOUR DECISIONS CAN HELP OR HAUNT YOU THE REST OF YOUR CAREER.

av8or,

I never said there was no such thing as struck work. You have confused a posting by rollndadice with mine. If there is a legal picket line, I will not cross it. If I am told to fly DHL freight to a city serviced only by Astar, I will not fly it. It's that simple and it's the Teamster way. We don't need to be reminded of our struck work policy as Teamsters. Just don't shove ALPA political B.S. down our throats!
R.B.

R.B.
Thanks for the support and I agree there's too much political B.S. everywhere. As line pilots, we're all out there every night hauling boxes and trying to put bread on the table for our families. There's really not that much difference between us all.

The ALPA link has defined struck work as a snapshot of all the work that Astar flew on a specific date (8/24 I believe) and only that work. If and when Astar pilots strike, only those flights would be off limits. I suppose I may have the details skewed a bit, but that is the situation as I understand it.

Sorry to see that some have misinterperated the (borrowed) Teamster rally call as a slam against all ABX folks. I think it was meant as a reminder to any pilot who feel they can fly whatever and whenever they want. Every airline has a pilot or two that would scab. I know Astar does. So don't take it as a slam against all ABX pilots. The message is directed towards any pilot who would scab struck work; Astar, ABX, or otherwise.

8Driver

Here's a quote from the DPWN investor relations website. Maybe the news report of UPS being interested in buying a share of DPWN has some merit?

"In light of the oligopolistic and mature market structure in the US, it will be
difficult for DHL Express to achieve a competitive position even after the integration of Airborne is completed."

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
ol·i·gop·o·ly /ˌɒlɪˈgɒpəli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ol-i-gop-uh-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun the market condition that exists when there are few sellers, as a result of which they can greatly influence price and other market factors. Compare duopoly, monopoly (def. 1).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1890–95; oligo- + (mono)poly]

RedBaron et al.........what he said. Excellent post. And thanks again for the supportive statement.

The DAL ALPA pilots DID honor the Comair strike. They did not fly exclusive CMR routes, nor did they increase frequency to any CMR cities. This left DAL Managment in a very tough position and instead of the CMR pilots winding up on the streets for (as they surely would have) they ended up with a workable CBA.
DAL management learned a lesson in struck work at the same time. To counter any future efforts they have added "overlap" and greatly narrowed exclusive cities served by ALL their feeders. As any commuter knows, you can fly 3 different DAL codeshare partners from many cities into the hubs.

Commair and Delta had strike insurance for 90 days. They settled in 89. Delta lost nothing in the long run. Delta did increase the number of their mainline jets to fly people out of CVG and elsewhere. If Delta pilots had truly honored Commair pickets, then that strike would not have lasted 2 weeks.
I called to check on a flight to a Commair city and Delta had replaced the equipment with a larger aircraft. We flew Southwest.

DAL lost nothing? Well the numbers a costs related to the strike certainly didn't show that.