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-   -   Latest and greatest Bid rumor thread! (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/cargo/17083-latest-greatest-bid-rumor-thread.html)

pilot141 09-19-2007 09:07 PM

Latest and greatest Bid rumor thread!
 
From a couple of sources today:

No bid until mid-October.

The company thinks something might happen on Age 60 around 1 Oct, and the bid won't come out until they know what the deal is.

Now for the one-source-rumor:

777s will be on the bid. The possibility of delivery slots moving up from Jul 09 to Jan 09 is a reality, and we will need 777 crews by then.

So the conservative rumor is: mid-October bid.

Radical rumor: mid-October bid with 777s available.

A300_Driver 09-20-2007 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilot141 (Post 233511)

Radical rumor: mid-October bid with 777s available.

So the big question will be, how many folks are going to bid it without the payrate being resolved?!

v1 uh-oh 09-20-2007 04:40 AM

O says the "small" bid should be out Oct. 1


7/32

Jetjok 09-20-2007 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A300_Driver (Post 233582)
So the big question will be, how many folks are going to bid it without the payrate being resolved?!

Do you really think that the current wide body pay rate, plus getting a type rating in a 777 is not enough to entice a bunch of guys, who will actually be senior enough to hold this aircraft and seat, to bid it? One only needs to look at the historicals here at FedEx to realize that this A/C will fill up very quickly, with, I suspect, medium to senior guys. But time will tell.

Gunter 09-20-2007 05:52 AM

I agree no big bid will occur before age 65 is resolved. Lots of training costs to be saved by moving over 60 guys back up front.

Preaching to the choir, I know, but when a widebody CA retires you create several training cycles. One for wide CA, wide FO and narrow FO. By taking a guy off the bottom, SO, and reinputting into wide CA you save.

You know the accountants are excited about this possibility.

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A300_Driver (Post 233582)
So the big question will be, how many folks are going to bid it without the payrate being resolved?!


The same type of folks who would have Bid the FDA's without an LOA.

Huck 09-20-2007 08:07 AM

It ain't the training costs they want to save. It's the decreased retirement payments. EVEN IF you live to the same age (doubtful), you just saved FDX 5 years of triple-digit retirement checks, per pilot.

We can't ***** - our union asked for this.....

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huck (Post 233721)
It ain't the training costs they want to save. It's the decreased retirement payments. EVEN IF you live to the same age (doubtful), you just saved FDX 5 years of triple-digit retirement checks, per pilot.

We can't ***** - our union asked for this.....


The Union "Our Union " didn't ask for the AGE 60 rule to change.

They asked that any active pilot on the seniority list be allowed to excercise seniority rights should the law change. That is what a Union does.

Whether you agree with it it or not is entirely up to you.

Most of those guys (not all) have been paying dues to ALPA , FPA and ALPA again. There are many 30 year ALPA tie pins on our S/Os. Most deserve the support of ALPA i.e us! There are a few DB's and freeloaders in that group, but we have plently younger guys on our list who are just as bad or worse in that category.

As far as guys working past 60, even if the law didn't change we would still have many folks electing to work past 60 as engineers for a multitude of reasons.

Some need to keep working to attempt to maximize longevity.
Some make more flying actively as a an S/O than they would retired.
Some just can't fathom sitting at home doing nothing.......not my cup of tea but it is a personal choice.

Bohica 09-20-2007 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233757)
The Union "Our Union " didn't ask for the AGE 60 rule to change.

They asked that any active pilot on the seniority list be allowed to excercise seniority rights should the law change. That is what a Union does.

Whether you agree with it it or not is entirely up to you.

Most of those guys (not all) have been paying dues to ALPA , FPA and ALPA again. There are many 30 year ALPA tie pins on our S/Os. Most deserve the support of ALPA i.e us! There are a few DB's and freeloaders in that group, but we have plently younger guys on our list who are just as bad or worse in that category.

As far as guys working past 60, even if the law didn't change we would still have many folks electing to work past 60 as engineers for a multitude of reasons.

Some need to keep working to attempt to maximize longevity.
Some make more flying actively as a an S/O than they would retired.
Some just can't fathom sitting at home doing nothing.......not my cup of tea but it is a personal choice.

Yeah, actually it did.

Albief15 09-20-2007 10:10 AM

I don't think our union pushed for age 60 until Prater came in and added his tacit support for the change. Didn't like it--but that's what happened and now we deal with it.

The retro language in the Obestar stuff is compliments of ALPA, its exec board, and the blue ribbon panel. Our own Dave Webb was behind that being pushed into the wording according to some of the panel members.

We'll deal with it. However, there are a lot of mixed signals being sent on how our union felt about the problem. The whole "we were just reacting to outside forces..." is a bit dishonest in my opinion. Once the battle loomed, they wanted our mandate to "jump in and influence the outcome..." What they did was they jumped in and helped fast track it past the NPRM process and with the added retro language.

Again--changing the law the right or wrong thing to do? We can debate on that for years. What is apparent to me, however, is our union leadership told the body one story but pursued another agenda behind closed doors. Read the block rep responses and letters on the issue--there is a whole lot of "wink wink" they'll never get to BID back there language at times. The reality appears to be in fact the law will change, and the bid will happen at a time that allows the over 60 crowd to stay in place or back fill whatever vacancies are needed. Again--DW gets to take the "moral high ground" and tell the over 60 guys they'll get what they want, while other block reps quietly whisper "don't worry--won't happen--they can't bid back to those seats because the company will put out a monster bid and there won't be any openings...." Classic double speak trying to keep everyone happy. Fact is, someone is either misinformed or lying. That is why I think so many members, especially the junior guys, do not trust our current MEC leadership. Add a few other issues--VEBA, the Anchorage pass-over cop out, no change on 757 rates but a push for 777 as 380 rates, and a very substandard LOA, and at the least the appearance is that our MEC works off a different agenda at times than the majority of the crew force.

Some guy 09-20-2007 10:41 AM

Agree with you 100% Albie. When I was hired, I came here with an open mind about ALPA...I believed the propaganda, joined and listened to our MEC at the Town Hall meetings tell us how they would represent us, fight for us and do what was right for the COLLECTIVE good. How they didn't want Congress to tell us what to do and the NPRM process was the way to go; and recently, how the LOA was the best they could get...Saying that I am disappointed with my union would be a huge understatment.

I'm "Sofa King" mad...SG

purplepilot 09-20-2007 11:36 AM

Ditto, I agree 100%. The union has let most of us down terribly.

koz2000 09-20-2007 12:51 PM

friend of mine works on the Hill and she told me the FAA re-authorization bill pass the House today 267 to 151..... :mad: I guess we'll have to see what happens next.

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bohica (Post 233776)
Yeah, actually it did.


Where and When did ALPA Lobby for the AGE 60 law to change?


When it was obvious that the Law was going to change, they did stop their opposition, and yes ALPA got Oberstar language put in, but saying they lobbied to get the law to change is BS.

PurpleTail 09-20-2007 01:47 PM

AS FAR AS HKG AND CDG go...what are the rumors on how many seats need to be filled in the initial bid for Capt and FO's? 30/30, 50/50 ??? Survey says? Seems like there will be more seats in HKG and less in CDG...

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplepilot (Post 233861)
Ditto, I agree 100%. The union has let most of us down terribly.

Gee lets see:

You have the Best Retirement in the Industry!

You have the Best Vacation policy in the Industry.

We have the Best Scope language.

As of Jan 08 you will have the best Medical/Dental benefits in the Industry.

You are all the highest paid in the industry.

Yeap ALPA let you down alright.

And believe it or not we still have the best work rules. Sure things could be better, But Look at the Big picture. There are 100,000 pilots who would change places with you in a New York Second.

You guys are starting to sound like spoiled liltte Rich kids

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplepilot (Post 233861)
Ditto, I agree 100%. The union has let most of us down terribly.


And I am sure things would be so much better without ALPA.

Just think without ALPA you'd have nobody to Whine to or Complain about!

Albief15 09-20-2007 02:20 PM

Somewhere between "you guys ***** about everything.." and "everthing here sucks" there is some solid ground.

Everything RedEye has pointed out is valid. At the same time, you have to admit the tone and dialect of the communications on age 60 and a host of other issues has been terrible. Just because we've got some pretty good things going on doesn't mean other stuff cannot be improved.

The biggest gripe most folks have is the have the perception their leadership is indifferent to their concerns. If you express concerns, at times some the tone is downright hostile.

And as for scope--I think we come in well behind UPS. Take a look at the UPS language. I am not the legal guru, but I think you'll find their scope clause considerably more clear cut and defendable. Its been posted here before--do a thread search and take a peek.

Gunter 09-20-2007 02:38 PM

Delete delete

MaxKts 09-20-2007 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
Gee lets see:

You have the Best Retirement in the Industry!

By default

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
You have the Best Vacation policy in the Industry.

I will give you this one

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
We have the Best Scope language.

Let's see - took a substandard LOA to improve on the 'best scope in the industry'

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
As of Jan 08 you will have the best Medical/Dental benefits in the Industry.

Jury is still out on this one

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
You are all the highest paid in the industry.

Again by default - not because we fought for it

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
Yeap ALPA let you down alright.

And believe it or not we still have the best work rules. Sure things could be better, But Look at the Big picture. There are 100,000 pilots who would change places with you in a New York Second.

You guys are starting to sound like spoiled liltte Rich kids

Again, they only want to be here because now it sucks to be there. Five years ago most of them wouldn't give you the time of day

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxKts (Post 233974)
Again, they only want to be here because now it sucks to be there. Five years ago most of them wouldn't give you the time of day

And isn't that the way this industry is?

I remember me and my squadronmates all wanted to work for Eastern and Delta.

A snapshot of the industry on any given day is where people say they want to be.

Who knows in a 5-10 years mayber USAir will be the place to be or Virgin America, but right now FedEx IS the place to be.

JethroF15 09-20-2007 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
Gee lets see:

You have the Best Retirement in the Industry!

You have the Best Vacation policy in the Industry.

We have the Best Scope language.

As of Jan 08 you will have the best Medical/Dental benefits in the Industry.

You are all the highest paid in the industry.

Yeap ALPA let you down alright.

And believe it or not we still have the best work rules. Sure things could be better, But Look at the Big picture. There are 100,000 pilots who would change places with you in a New York Second.

You guys are starting to sound like spoiled liltte Rich kids

Yikes! You sound like you are management! Your initials aren't DM are they.:eek: Standard union stance anytime anyone raises a concern or questions how things are happening at the top. I'm very surprised the, "well if you don't like how things are going then why don't you run for office or volunteer" statement didn't show up in your response. Keep drinking whatever they are giving you.

ScumSeeker 09-20-2007 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroF15 (Post 234013)
Yikes! You sound like you are management! Your initials aren't DM are they.:eek: Standard union stance anytime anyone raises a concern or questions how things are happening at the top. I'm very surprised the, "well if you don't like how things are going then why don't you run for office or volunteer" statement didn't show up in your response. Keep drinking whatever they are giving you.

Jethro, you are scaring me. I was thinking the EXACT same thing. In reality, there are probably many people thinking the EXACT same thing!

RedeyeAV8r 09-20-2007 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroF15 (Post 234013)
Yikes! You sound like you are management! Your initials aren't DM are they.:eek: Standard union stance anytime anyone raises a concern or questions how things are happening at the top. I'm very surprised the, "well if you don't like how things are going then why don't you run for office or volunteer" statement didn't show up in your response. Keep drinking whatever they are giving you.

If you have read most of my past posts, you would know I am Hardly a management suit type!

I responded to childish accusations by what I'll assume are relatively Junior folks who haven't been in this industry but a few years.
I only posted facts. Go ahead and dispute them.

Did ALPA lobby to get the AGE 60 Change?
Answer ....NO

Do you currently have the Highest pay and best benefits in the industry?

Answer........ Yes

Would you have gotten these without your Union?

Answer .......... NO

I won't deny that things could be better. I won't deny that the Union leadership has made a few Faux Pas.
I won't say Run for office because I personally don't or wouldn't want the Job.
It is too much like work.
But I will say it is easy to sit on the sidelines and throw spears.

Falconjet 09-20-2007 04:21 PM

fook it. nevermind.

fdxflyer 09-20-2007 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 233937)
Gee lets see:

You have the Best Retirement in the Industry!

You have the Best Vacation policy in the Industry.

We have the Best Scope language.

As of Jan 08 you will have the best Medical/Dental benefits in the Industry.

You are all the highest paid in the industry.

Yeap ALPA let you down alright.

And believe it or not we still have the best work rules. Sure things could be better, But Look at the Big picture. There are 100,000 pilots who would change places with you in a New York Second.

You guys are starting to sound like spoiled liltte Rich kids

AND YOU SOUND LIKE................Oh forget it - You have obviously already heard!

JethroF15 09-20-2007 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 234030)
....But I will say it is easy to sit on the sidelines and throw spears.

And there it is. As a dues paying member I think I have a right to ask questions about how elected officials of the union make decisions. When those questions are answered with mostly quotes as above, and many others to the same effect, people get frustrated with how things are being done at the leadership level. I have an email response from DW himself on the age 60 debacle that is the most condescending and juvenile response to a valid question I have ever seen. I expect a little more for my dues from the very people that supposably represent me and my fellow pilots. Instead, I feel like I am being told to just shut up and follow the leaders... at least that's what I get from most of the union responses to valid questions. Like beating your head against a door... gets old quick.:rolleyes:

rolling thunder 09-20-2007 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r (Post 234030)
Do you currently have the Highest pay and best benefits in the industry?

Answer........ Yes

Well I am not sure on this, but I believe all UPS pilots make Fedex widebody pay -50 cents. So the Fedex 727 guys might not say that they are the highest paid. It would seem that UPS narrowbody pays more than Fedex.

A300_Driver 09-20-2007 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling thunder (Post 234078)
Well I am not sure on this, but I believe all UPS pilots make Fedex widebody pay -50 cents. So the Fedex 727 guys might not say that they are the highest paid. It would seem that UPS narrowbody pays more than Fedex.

Yeah, but we got that A380 pay!
Oh, wait a minute, I guess we have to renegotiate that one again...:eek:

MEMA300 09-20-2007 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling thunder (Post 234078)
Well I am not sure on this, but I believe all UPS pilots make Fedex widebody pay -50 cents. So the Fedex 727 guys might not say that they are the highest paid. It would seem that UPS narrowbody pays more than Fedex.

Lets not even get into the per-diem. 1.95(FDX) 2.10(UPS)

A300_Driver 09-21-2007 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEMA300 (Post 234107)
Lets not even get into the per-diem. 1.95(FDX) 2.10(UPS)

Yeah, but they have to pay for their High Speed Internet access, and they have to wear Brown!!!:o

AerisArmis 09-21-2007 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A300_Driver (Post 234313)
Yeah, but they have to pay for their High Speed Internet access, and they have to wear Brown!!!:o

"I went to my dentist yesterday and told him I have yellow teeth, what can I do about it?" He said "wear a brown tie!". I tell ya, I get no respect!
......Rodney Dangerfield

AerisArmis 09-21-2007 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEMA300 (Post 234107)
Lets not even get into the per-diem. 1.95(FDX) 2.10(UPS)

I'm told that at Big Brown, if you deviate and leave a day later than the schedule, you get docked 3 hours of pay because you didn't "work" that day. If true, it would take a lot of 15 cent increments to make up for those 3 CH. Be careful what you wish for.....

SNIZ 09-21-2007 09:38 AM

I'll tell you one thing...UPS keeps it's airplanes looking very sharp. FWIW.

purplepilot 09-21-2007 11:36 AM

Jethro15, I agree with you. Looks like redeyeav8r has been drinking WAY too much mgmt koolade.

Albief15 09-21-2007 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplepilot (Post 234565)
Jethro15, I agree with you. Looks like redeyeav8r has been drinking WAY too much mgmt koolade.

If you look at some of his posts, I think what you will find is a pretty staunch supporter of pilots here and at other companies. I don't always agree with his postion on issue X or Y, but keep the big picture...

Go look at the NW approves strike vote thread on the majors forum. Look at some of his past posts....

Civil disagreement on the issues doesn't mean a guy is a kool aid drinker. Taking the "you kids don't get it approach" isn't always my favorite way of taking information, but in the context of what he has said and done in the past I think you need to give him the benefit of the doubt.

How many of you guys quit flying NWA last year to support those guys? Redeye did. How many of you support the PAC? I haven't--out of severe irritation about the way age 60 and the process was handled--but that doesn't change the fact a lot of these guys have been towing the line for years.

I think there are a lot of things we can do better. At the same time, calling a guy a "kool aid drinker" isn't the same as calling a guy a SCAB, but I do think its a bit inflamatory and probably a bit inaccurate in the big picture.

So--call him a windbag if you want :D or tell him he's got his head up his butt on the age 60 thing :rolleyes:, but in the big picture I think he's been on your side a lot more than he's been against you.

You know--I seem to remember that back in the day of the Delta "family" both the pilots and the company took pride in the fact the pilots were paid very well and the company had a great repuation as being the best in the business. Both the company and the pilots seemed proud of each other. Nothing wrong with RedEye being proud of FedEx...I would like to see more of that. As long as we keep our eyes on each other's bottom line there is plenty of room for win/win outcomes.

OKLATEX 09-22-2007 04:45 AM

Well said Albie! You sir, are a voice of reason and see the big picture, keep up the good work.

hoya saxa 09-22-2007 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albief15 (Post 234636)
As long as we keep our eyes on each other's bottom.

WTF?! Albie, you gazer!:D

AerisArmis 09-22-2007 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoya saxa (Post 234899)
WTF?! Albie, you gazer!:D

Hey, give him a break! He's an Eagle guy, they're born that way.

MD11Fr8Dog 09-22-2007 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AerisArmis (Post 234927)
Hey, give him a break! He's an Eagle guy, they're born that way.


I thought it was another of those personal choices! ;)


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