Can the company cancel part of a bid?
01-06-2008, 06:24 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
I'm just a simple sea lawyer but it seems clear to me that if a Pilot just lost his Bid award on 07-03 but had HKG or CDG as a subsequent choice to his Lost Bid award, he/she will rate passover pay, but you better be willing to go to HKG or CDG on a subsequent Bid....
Because the company awarded a position that piloted wanted to a junior pilot, without giving him the opportunity to fairly bid on it.
The company is effectively pulling a "bait and switch" manuever by only cancelling a portion of the awards on the bid and not rebidding the whole thing.
The union lawyers needs to look at this hard --- very, very hard.
Last edited by DLax85; 01-06-2008 at 06:25 AM. Reason: typo
01-06-2008, 11:18 AM
#22
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Position: DC10 Captain
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
I'm just a simple sea lawyer but it seems clear to me that if a Pilot just lost his Bid award on 07-03 but had HKG or CDG as a subsequent choice to his Lost Bid award, he/she will rate passover pay, but you better be willing to go to HKG or CDG on a subsequent Bid.
Let's look at Sec 24 E 4 Cancellation of Awards
Section 24. E. 4.
A. The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date. A pilot whose award/assignment is canceled may either remain in his current crew position, or exercise his seniority for an award or a vacancy posting that occurred between the date his crew position was awarded and the date it was canceled. He shall be eligible to receive passover pay if:
i.a junior pilot is activated in a crew position pursuant to the same or any subsequent posting and the rate of pay for that crew position is higher than the rate of pay for the current crew position of the pilot whose award has been canceled; and
ii. the standing bid of the pilot whose award has been canceled included the crew position in which the junior pilot has been activated as a preference higher than his current crew position.
b.A pilot’s entitlement to passover pay pursuant to Section 24.E.4.a. (above), shall continue until the earlier of:
i.the affected pilot’s subsequent activation in a crew position with a rate of pay equal to or higher than his passover rate of pay; or
ii.the closing date of a subsequent posting meeting the following criteria:
(a) the posting contains a permanent vacancy in the crew position with respect to which the affected pilot is receiving passover pay; and
(b) the pilot did not have that crew position on his standing bid; and
(c) the pilot would have been awarded that crew position had he included that crew position on his standing bid.
Let's look at Sec 24 E 4 Cancellation of Awards
Section 24. E. 4.
A. The Company may cancel an award/assignment of a crew position in reverse seniority order provided it does so at least 30 days prior to the pilot's scheduled training date. A pilot whose award/assignment is canceled may either remain in his current crew position, or exercise his seniority for an award or a vacancy posting that occurred between the date his crew position was awarded and the date it was canceled. He shall be eligible to receive passover pay if:
i.a junior pilot is activated in a crew position pursuant to the same or any subsequent posting and the rate of pay for that crew position is higher than the rate of pay for the current crew position of the pilot whose award has been canceled; and
ii. the standing bid of the pilot whose award has been canceled included the crew position in which the junior pilot has been activated as a preference higher than his current crew position.
b.A pilot’s entitlement to passover pay pursuant to Section 24.E.4.a. (above), shall continue until the earlier of:
i.the affected pilot’s subsequent activation in a crew position with a rate of pay equal to or higher than his passover rate of pay; or
ii.the closing date of a subsequent posting meeting the following criteria:
(a) the posting contains a permanent vacancy in the crew position with respect to which the affected pilot is receiving passover pay; and
(b) the pilot did not have that crew position on his standing bid; and
(c) the pilot would have been awarded that crew position had he included that crew position on his standing bid.
Wait. If you could not actually hold it (even though you no longer have it on your standing bid), passover continues? If I'm reading that right, looks to me like A. b. ii. (c) just has become a bunch of guys best friend, and a reason to hope that the LOA really gets better quickly.
Hmmm, maybe agree to pay a more senior guy sitting on the fence part of your passover pay (if you get it) to get him to go ahead and bid it...???
01-06-2008, 01:31 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
Originally Posted by Toccata
Actually, looks to me like you would not have to go there on the next bid. You remove that HKG/CDG choice on your standing bid preference - and passover pay stops when that subsequent bid closes.
That's one reason why the 757 trng guys quit. None was ready to pay back all that passover.
01-06-2008, 02:18 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Toccata
Actually, looks to me like you would not have to go there on the next bid. You remove that HKG/CDG choice on your standing bid preference - and passover pay stops when that subsequent bid closes.
Wait. If you could not actually hold it (even though you no longer have it on your standing bid), passover continues? If I'm reading that right, looks to me like A. b. ii. (c) just has become a bunch of guys best friend, and a reason to hope that the LOA really gets better quickly.
Hmmm, maybe agree to pay a more senior guy sitting on the fence part of your passover pay (if you get it) to get him to go ahead and bid it...???
Wait. If you could not actually hold it (even though you no longer have it on your standing bid), passover continues? If I'm reading that right, looks to me like A. b. ii. (c) just has become a bunch of guys best friend, and a reason to hope that the LOA really gets better quickly.
Hmmm, maybe agree to pay a more senior guy sitting on the fence part of your passover pay (if you get it) to get him to go ahead and bid it...???
The only problem with your assesment is that in order to begin receiving the JR crew member that got the Capt award in HKG or CDG passover pay in this case must Check out first which is the triggering event (not the actual award itself).
BID 08-01 is now out and will close 16 FEB. Since the Jr Crew probably won't begin training for several months from now or probably not before 08-01 closes, there is a very short window, ans which is why the company added 3 extra CDG and HKG Capts. The optimum scenario for passover pay purposes would be for the company cancel what they did and not have another bid for a long time. Good for passover pay purposes, bad for everything else.
01-07-2008, 01:48 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: DC10 Captain
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Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
The only problem with your assesment is that in order to begin receiving the JR crew member that got the Capt award in HKG or CDG passover pay in this case must Check out first which is the triggering event (not the actual award itself).
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
BID 08-01 is now out and will close 16 FEB. Since the Jr Crew probably won't begin training for several months from now or probably not before 08-01 closes, there is a very short window, ans which is why the company added 3 extra CDG and HKG Capts. The optimum scenario for passover pay purposes would be for the company cancel what they did and not have another bid for a long time. Good for passover pay purposes, bad for everything else.
1) If the guy that bid 1) MEM 757 Capt, and 2) CDG 757 Capt in 0703 and was awarded his first choice, and then it was subsequently canceled, AND someone junior to him received CDG 757, he is eligible for passover pay that starts when you indicated above.
2) If he now keeps his standing bid the same, and cannot hold CDG 757 when bid 0801 closes (a distinct possibility with the regulated age change), his passover continues until..... well...I believe until he activates into a similar (or same) pay position in either 0801, or a later bid. Even if he is awarded MEM 757 Capt.
I think I was wrong earlier. I believe that he would have to keep the CDG Capt choice on his standing bid in the relative position.
4am analysis - the guy should be cheering that those newly eligible to bid and senior to him like wine and croissants for breakfast, if he wants to continue receiving passover pay while staying in his same current position.
Look correct?
01-07-2008, 01:49 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Toccata
Agree with that - did not say anything differently (at least I think I did not).
4am analysis - the guy should be cheering that those newly eligible to bid and senior to him like wine and croissants for breakfast, if he wants to continue receiving passover pay while staying in his same current position.
Look correct?
4am analysis - the guy should be cheering that those newly eligible to bid and senior to him like wine and croissants for breakfast, if he wants to continue receiving passover pay while staying in his same current position.
Look correct?
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