Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Cargo
not taking résumés, not hiring: why UPS @ job fair? >

not taking résumés, not hiring: why UPS @ job fair?

Notices
Cargo Part 121 cargo airlines

not taking résumés, not hiring: why UPS @ job fair?

Old 02-14-2008, 03:20 PM
  #131  
Banned
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 512
Default

Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
AV8OR and Biff,

You guys made so many incorrect statements that I'm tempted to reply, even though this issue is hardly dependent on one's personal circumstances, neither yours nor mine.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.
Whatever Roberto. Don't answer the points or the questions, keep playing dodge ball. It just makes you look more selfish and greedy.
bifff15 is offline  
Old 02-14-2008, 03:40 PM
  #132  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,317
Default

Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
You guys made so many incorrect statements that I'm tempted to reply, even though this issue is hardly dependent on one's personal circumstances, neither yours nor mine ... An ad hominem argument ... consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim ... It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.
I went back to re-read my post to see if I indeed replied to your argument by "attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person (you) making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim…”

Really? I attacked your characteristics and/or beliefs in my post? Please tell me how and I’ll promptly apologize. Maybe someone else here can explain to me how my previous post diverted the attention from the real issue and instead attacked Roberto’s beliefs?

- Ok, here comes a joke - it's NOT an attack, ok?! I have to ask - did you by any chance use to work for the IRS? Your ‘plain talk’ explanations make me believe you must be a former IRS agent? Are you the guy who ‘simplified’ the IRS tax forms, huh? (this is not an attack, this is a joke, ok?)

I agree with everything biff said with the exception to the military retirement and health care benefits issue. I've said it before and I'll say it again – whether he or anyone else has military retirement and benefits is totally irrelevant. Military personnel deserve better benefits than they have and we should never include those benefits when comparing our pay and benefits because it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Roberto – my whole post was about asking you to look at the age 65 debate through another prism – one of the “young’uns” as you lovingly called them. Whereas you claim that the “young’uns” are trying to “force out their more experienced union brothers…” I was trying to explain to you that many of the young’uns believe the >60 pilots are trying to 'force them out' of the left seat. The truth is both sides are correct because it IS all about greed. In this case, the old guys won the 'greed battle' but in my view the pilot profession lost the war. I say that because we'll now work longer and live shorter once in retirement - cannot see that as a win for the profession itself.

I did NOT avoid the issue by going after your beliefs or characteristics, instead I defended the “young’uns” you were attacking by claiming they were all trying to force you out. I simply wanted to show you that greed IS the common denominator in this equation.

I do not think the age 65 rule will affect us as as much as some believe however I am suprised at the lack of understanding from some of the older pilots on the resistance from the young'uns.

I sincerely think that at the very least every over 60 captain should make it his/her priority to purchase a new leather jacket to a new hire. It's less than peanuts to you yet its equivalent to one of his/her two monthly paychecks. Of course, because of the law you don’t have to worry about spending that money as we probably won’t see any new hires for a while.

You never answered my question by the way. So how many years did YOU have to wait to become a captain?
⌐ AV8OR WANNABE is offline  
Old 02-14-2008, 04:04 PM
  #133  
Banned
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 512
Default

AV8OR,
Rob's points were all directed at me. At least that is what he will claim since I'm the one calling him out character wise.
He doesn't like it because it doesn't make him feel good. I have dealt with people like this before. They dislike you because you hold up the mirror that allows them to see who they truly are not who they pretend to be.
I might be wrong about Bob, however since he won't answer any questions I have to assume he can't vice won't for fear of incriminating himself further.
His biggest worry is whether or not he will get to the front seat prior to age 65. Due to his position towards the bottom of the FE list with many, many folks above him in seniority his age or younger and the limited openings that are bound to happen over the next few years it might just end up a moot point.
Oh well time will tell.
Biff
bifff15 is offline  
Old 02-14-2008, 04:34 PM
  #134  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Roberto's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Default

Biff and AV8OR,

Next time I'm on reserve, with nothing else to do, perhaps I'll respond to your questions, and highlight all the mistakes, misstatements, opinions stated as facts, and incorrect premises. But if I do that, so what? It really won't change the situation.

A quick answer for AV8OR- 4 years to first-available FO, 10 years to first-available captain.
Roberto is offline  
Old 02-14-2008, 06:04 PM
  #135  
Banned
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 512
Default

Originally Posted by bifff15 View Post
Whatever Roberto. Don't answer the points or the questions, keep playing dodge ball. It just makes you look more selfish and greedy.
...........
bifff15 is offline  
Old 02-14-2008, 08:22 PM
  #136  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Roberto, how many years did it take you to upgrade to the left seat? …or were you hired as a captain? I’m asking because I know many guys/gals were hired into the left seat when UPS started up as an airline.

I don't think the "young'uns" are trying to force the older pilots out - they just want to preserve their upgrade expectations they all had when hired. The new law skewed those expectations tremendously. The way I see it, in one pen stroke their former "older union brothers" who'd been planning their retirements all those years all of a sudden got a 5 year bonus on the backs of the "young'uns."
The law is the law and there's nothing that you or I can change but I'm just pointing out that in the view of many "youn'uns" it's the older pilots trying to force out the younger pilots and not the other way around - force them out from the left seat.

It IS greed all right, from BOTH sides. The only difference is that the older guys got a HUGE retirement package increase they never even planned on getting and now they expect the younger pilots to be “glad” that all this "great experience" will stay in the cockpit with them for 5 more years.

Whereas YOU now have the option of retiring at 60, 61, 62 1/2, or maybe at 65 I bet you the "young'uns" will not have that option unless they are willing to take an "early" retirement option, meaning they’ll take a penalty.
I know you'll say that we have to fight for that option in our next contract BUT I bet you the company will throw in some kind of cash bonus for us to give up the possibility of retiring at 60 - …and the older guys will take the cash and just let the younger guys work longer. Nothing new – just look at the 1st year pay here – who cares about the “young’uns” right? After all, they now have 5 more years to pay off those credit cards.

I can already hear you say “well, but second year guys make sooo much money nowadays; it took me 5 years to break through 100K, etc...” Well, I’d argue that if you take the inflation into account your pay as a new-hire AND the following years was higher in the past than it is now. Especially IF you were hired as a captain…

Fire away…

Can I get a friggin AMEN Bro! I agree 100%
Freightpuppy is offline  
Old 02-15-2008, 04:27 AM
  #137  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Roberto's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Default

Originally Posted by Freightpuppy View Post
Can I get a friggin AMEN Bro! I agree 100%
Freightpuppy,

Don't be so greedy. There are men out there that need to support their families.

Let's make a deal. Rescind the laws against discrimination for geezers and girls. You can go home and bake cookies, and I'll go fishin' <g>

Agreed?

Last edited by Roberto; 02-15-2008 at 07:54 AM.
Roberto is offline  
Old 02-15-2008, 06:39 AM
  #138  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Moondog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 558
Default

You cannot be for real!! Please just retire, enjoy your life for a whie and make way for your 'younger' brothers, like your 'older' brothers did for you.
Moondog is offline  
Old 02-15-2008, 08:03 AM
  #139  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
Freightpuppy,

Don't be so greedy. There are men out there that need to support their families.

Let's make a deal. Rescind the laws against discrimination for geezers and girls. You can go home and bake cookies, and I'll go fishin' <g>

Agreed?

Dude, if you are 60 years old and need capt. pay vs. FE pay....you screwed up somewhere along the way....at the very MINIMUM, your house should be paid off.

If you need money that bad, get the old lady to get her butt to work!

Ooooh....baking cookies....sounds like fun! How about I bake cookies, you catch some fish and then we'll share? LOL!
Freightpuppy is offline  
Old 02-15-2008, 08:21 AM
  #140  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Roberto's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Default

Originally Posted by Freightpuppy View Post
Dude, if you are 60 years old and need capt. pay vs. FE pay....you screwed up somewhere along the way....at the very MINIMUM, your house should be paid off.

If you need money that bad, get the old lady to get her butt to work!

Ooooh....baking cookies....sounds like fun! How about I bake cookies, you catch some fish and then we'll share? LOL!
I am, I don't, and it is.

I plan to inform the old lady as soon as she comes home from her vacation and gives me back my American Express card.

I'm glad you enjoyed the reductio ad absurdum <g>

What fleet are you on? I plan on being on the 757 again, but it may take a while.

I'll be the fish (Pisces) and you bring the cookie dough, or if you're really good, bring the ingredients and make them from scratch <g>

Last edited by Roberto; 02-15-2008 at 08:43 AM.
Roberto is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
FNG1
Flight Schools and Training
12
12-08-2007 06:35 AM
pilot_man
Regional
2
11-02-2007 01:24 PM
FlyingDog
Hiring News
4
10-18-2007 08:54 AM
captscott26
Major
10
08-31-2007 08:52 PM
Sir James
Hiring News
9
05-19-2006 03:46 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread