PFE vs S/O
 

why does a pfe get paid more than a s/o?? I know of two magor frieghters (ABX AIR/UPS) that have pfes in the cockpit (or as a female UAL pilot told me "crew pit") does the industry place more value on a pfe as opposed to a pilot? Please do not take offense!! My line of thinking is a higher level of training would be worth more pay. A pfe is not a pilot and cannot move to the right/left seat where as a s/o can. If you are a pfe please do not take offense...I ask out of curiosity and lack of knowledge.

"I know of two magor frieghters (ABX AIR/UPS) that have pfes in the cockpit"

When UPS started, they hired some PFE's from the contract carriers. They got F/O pay. They weren't pilots.

In 92, I believe, the new contract gave them two options. Accept the lower S/O pay scale or become pilots. UPS actually paid for them to get their ratings and take a shot at the upgrade. Some did, I hear, but I've never met one. Some chose to take the paycut and be S/O's.

Anyhow, UPS doesn't really have PFE's anymore, at least in the old sense. We have two types of S/O's. Some new hires, though some new hires go straight to the right seat. Depends on timing and experience within the class. The other is over 60 crewmembers who can't be in a front seat anymore. Most of the UPS guys reaching age 60 take their seniority and longevity to the back seat and become highly paid S/O's.

Anyhow, sorry for the history lesson, but none of the S/O's at UPS are considered PFE's like in the old days. There is no PFE pay scale. There may still be a few of the early day PFE's on the list but I'd bet we haven't hired any PFE's since 88.

just a guess but the SO position is considered transitory while a PFE isn't going anywhere.

A pfe has a maintenance background (A&P) and is particularly helpful on long-haul older aircraft. I was a pfe in my former life now an fo. I still prefer the crusty old guy who knows his stuff sitting behind me (especially when things go wrong) than the young sjs kid who's waiting for me to keel over so he can have my job. The pfe's did get $5/hr more than f/o's which was pay for the A&P.

A PFE is an A&P mechanic who more than likely has advance systems knowledge, in my opinion better qualified to perform the flight engineer job than someone who is not familiar whith the technical stuff.

Whoa! What a great opportunity....UPS paying for their ratings....

I figured when I launched this salvo I didnt have the correct info...I have a friend 767capt from UPS that said they still have pfes. Im sure they dont hire any off the street anymore. ABX air does not hire pfes either. That was the old days...they also got the option to upgrade to the right seat and the company would pay for it. Some of the highlites of the upgrade were: com/multi/inst and 500hrs of multi time (I think) and you can (if your seniority will hold it) fly the right seat of the 767. am I the only one that thinks one should have a little more than 500hrs to be in a widebody?? It was a sweet deal any way u cut it. I sat sideways on the c-141 and thought I knew alot about flying. Its different when U get to the window seat. I also prefer to look back and see a grey hair around the edges in that third seat, because lets face it on a DC-8 u need a guy that knows what hes doing.

There's hope after all
 

Being 44 yrs of age, no flight time, i was encouraged to bang out my ratings at a school and then purchase a 737 rating. Reading about guys who are my age and older coming into the business is good news, really encouraging. I am full steam ahead.

Don't waste your money on a type rating.

A PFE is the system expert (your computer for 2-man cockpits, your guy to grab the fire bottle and fight a fire so you're not another Swiss Air news report). It was designed with the intent to be a person with a maintenance background (A&P lic.) that can fly. They were not pilots. It has since changed to Second Officers who do not have the hours and/or experience to sit the right seat and who do not have any experience in the center seat, but are put there in the mean time. Who would you rather have sitting in the FE seat? Is it a pay scale ego issue?

Professional Flight Engineer

OK so some PFE's are lurking about:eek:
If you want to become a PFE it will have to be at a carrier other than the two mentioned earlier. Look on the pay side of this forum and you'll see some pay breakout for PFE vs SO and the airlines that use them.
Regarding a PFE vs a SO. I'm sure having a qualified AMI on board is worthy when your out in the boonies of Africa or S America. As far as doing a better job, well, it isn't that hard to move gas (around) on a 74!;)

On the DC8 an experienced PFE/SO could be an asset because there were always some glitches popping up that could be fixed if you knew which (unrelated) C/B to reset. Also there were some bizarre electrical and fuel problems which could baffle a newbie. Like me. I enjoyed my time on panel though I'm glad it was short. Flying on the DC8 was like working in a museum and I appreciated getting a taste of it.

On most of the overseas carriers, isn't an SO a cruise pilot? With the U.S. carriers the third/fourth pilot in augmented crews is still called an FO.

In today's environment it has little to do with experience and everything to do with seniority. At my carrier 4000-5000 hours with jet/Tprop and PIC time was typical for new-hire SOs. I had 12,500 hours when I was hired into the back seat. I was not a systems expert when I went on the line, but I was qualified to be there and I know that my overall flying experience was an additional plus in the cockpit.

I have tons of respect for the PFEs I work with. Many here transitioned to the front seat, some are Captains now. The higher payscale at my company evolved from previous conditions. The job of PFE/SO is the same here, PFEs aren't required to turn wrenches.

oriionfe: if you are hired at my airline you and me go through the same ground school and have the same sim requirements etc. We are equally qualified exept where the pay scale is concerned. Youve spent time to get your A&P where I have not. I have spent time to get my ATP and 6000hrs flight time (I know Im still a rookie) and you have not. So if we are being paid for our experience I should by all rights get paid more than a PFE or at the very least the same. Its not about ego at all. Me thinks you protest too much.