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Old 04-16-2008, 06:12 AM   #1  
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Default FDX...let's play the excess game!

Just curious...but any idea how much all this movement is going to cost?

For example: -10 Capt moves to -11 Capt, who if they play the excess game, on down, bumps junior Capt down to -11 FO. The jr. FO, if excessed, bumps a 727 Capt, who bumps to say, 727 or Airbus FO, who then boots another guy down to S/O.

That's 5 new, full length training slots--that result from one upgrade. Or approximately, 1 full year of paying 5 guys to sit in training. Rough estimate, but figure 3/4 of a million $ in salaries alone, training costs not included...without generating a dime in revenue.

Add training costs, and each upgrade, with the excess ripple effect could ultimately reach $1 million a pop. And not a box has moved.

Maybe I'm off here, but from what I see jotting this down with my crayons and pad of paper, one thing keep happening:

I always end up using the red one last...
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:20 AM   #2  
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Do the seats without a vacancy or excess bid have to stay manned with exactly the number they have right now??

Will voluntary excess guys coming overreally bump guys off the bottom on the MD11 and Airbus??

I'm assuming they will plus up.

Last edited by Gunter; 04-16-2008 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:22 AM   #3  
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It doesn't seem to make sense to bump guys from the bottom of the MD-11 to the Boeing - they will just have to go back in a year or two...am I missing something?
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:24 AM   #4  
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Originally Posted by cma2407 View Post
Just curious...but any idea how much all this movement is going to cost?

For example: -10 Capt moves to -11 Capt, who if they play the excess game, on down, bumps junior Capt down to -11 FO. The jr. FO, if excessed, bumps a 727 Capt, who bumps to say, 727 or Airbus FO, who then boots another guy down to S/O.

That's 5 new, full length training slots--that result from one upgrade. Or approximately, 1 full year of paying 5 guys to sit in training. Rough estimate, but figure 3/4 of a million $ in salaries alone, training costs not included...without generating a dime in revenue.

Add training costs, and each upgrade, with the excess ripple effect could ultimately reach $1 million a pop. And not a box has moved.

Maybe I'm off here, but from what I see jotting this down with my crayons and pad of paper, one thing keep happening:

I always end up using the red one last...
You are correct that this could cause a trickle down effect, but it will not play out this way in my opinion. The DC10 and 727 CA that are to be excessed will almost all certainly bid WB CA on the MD11 or Bus. They are converting the remaining DC10's to MD10's and we are getting a few more MD11's. In theory most of the 10 CA's would prefer the MD based on similarity. We are in effect transferring guys into those seats. The Company will not put 104 DC10 CA's into ITU for the MD11 immediately, rather they will siphon off as they can and park DC10's. They will eat the short term increased manning levels rather than cascade.

These excesses could be viewed as "vacancies" in the MD11 as well as the 757, they just need to lock out the guys in the MD11 and A300 that would otherwise have had the seniority to bid a CA slot. Going from MD11 or A300 FO to WB CA, even if you are senior to 90% of the Captains in the seat now, will not occur until we get vacancy postings in those A/C. It is safe to say there will be NO secondary slots in the WB CA seat !

I do not see them incurring the training disaster, increased cost that is.
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:28 AM   #5  
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Do the seats without a vacancy or excess bid have to stay manned with exactly the numeber they have right now??

Will excessed guys really bump guys off the bottom on the MD11 and Airbus??

I'm assuming they will plus up.
You are correct. We do not have the bump and flush type of system that many airlines have. It's all spelled out in Section 24.C.6.
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:34 AM   #6  
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Thanks for the info. I read and follow, but unfortunately cannot always UNDERSTAND the language in the contract...
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:37 AM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cma2407 View Post
Just curious...but any idea how much all this movement is going to cost?

For example: -10 Capt moves to -11 Capt, who if they play the excess game, on down, bumps junior Capt down to -11 FO. The jr. FO, if excessed, bumps a 727 Capt, who bumps to say, 727 or Airbus FO, who then boots another guy down to S/O.

That's 5 new, full length training slots--that result from one upgrade. Or approximately, 1 full year of paying 5 guys to sit in training. Rough estimate, but figure 3/4 of a million $ in salaries alone, training costs not included...without generating a dime in revenue.

Add training costs, and each upgrade, with the excess ripple effect could ultimately reach $1 million a pop. And not a box has moved.

Maybe I'm off here, but from what I see jotting this down with my crayons and pad of paper, one thing keep happening:

I always end up using the red one last...
If you overmanned and don't need the bodies anyway...it doesn't cost anything. The instructors already get paid, the professional IPs are already on staff, and we own our own sims. Other than the day to day operational costs of running the sim and classes, I dont' see this costing extra.

The cost has been incurred when you remove a line pilot and pay other folks extra to do that work, or have to hire someone to fill the slot he vacated. We apparently have enough bodies to move the freight, with some extras laying around. Those extras can go through training at very little additional cost.

If we really are shaping towards a force of 757s, A300s, 777s, and MD11s...then having a few extra 757 and MD11 guys around won't hurt as we get more 757s and the 777 in the future.

That is, at least...my translatin of the Cassel/Rosado letters and statements of the last 30 days. I may, of course, be 100% wrong.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:32 AM   #8  
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One thing from a training pooint of view...

Let's look at a guy that's been in the DC-10 for ... oh a million years... now he'd faced with a training program like the MD-11. Will the training standards be the same? Relaxed? Wll all of them make it.. those that don't, where do they go? not back to the DC-10! Over 60 can retire.... the others.?

what say you folks?
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:43 AM   #9  
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Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
If you overmanned and don't need the bodies anyway...it doesn't cost anything. The instructors already get paid, the professional IPs are already on staff, and we own our own sims. Other than the day to day operational costs of running the sim and classes, I dont' see this costing extra.


Wise Albie-wan Kenobi is.... What will cost money is if they left everyone in place for the next year and then scrambled to cover the massive training cycles that the 777 will create. Imagine what a goat rope that it would be to cover the iterations created by 1200 (if the rumors about the 15 options are correct) primary vacancies and the associated secondaries!! As Jeff Dunham's Achmed the Dead Terrorist would say...."Holy Crap!!"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

Enjoy,

Yoda

Last edited by Yoda; 04-16-2008 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:57 AM   #10  
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One thing from a training pooint of view...

Let's look at a guy that's been in the DC-10 for ... oh a million years... now he'd faced with a training program like the MD-11. Will the training standards be the same? Relaxed? Wll all of them make it.. those that don't, where do they go? not back to the DC-10! Over 60 can retire.... the others.?

what say you folks?
Come on guys - don't be afraid to read the contract. It's even available online! Of course, if it was a rhetorical question - my apologies.
11.I.2.g. If a pilot is unable to return to his current crew position because that position is unavailable as provided in Section 11.I.2.f. (above), the following shall apply:

i. he shall be awarded a crew position in the same crew status as his most recent crew position consistent with his updated standing bid preference, provided he has sufficient seniority to hold that position; or

ii. if he is unable to designate a crew position in accordance with Section 11.I.2.g.i (above), he shall be awarded a crew position based upon his seniority and his updated standing bid preference; or

iii. if his seniority does not enable him to hold a crew position under Section 11.I.2.g.i or 11.I.2.g.ii. (above), his employment status shall be determined by the Vice President, Flight Operations, consistent with the seniority and qualifications of the affected pilot.

Last edited by FDXCapt; 04-16-2008 at 08:14 AM.
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