I used to be one of the biggest arguers against VEBA but I've had a change of heart recently. It's not that bad - this coming from a sub-40, junior FO. It should be there in its current form for all of us.

- initial seed money for VEBA was $43.2 mil - it's lower now as it was in stocks at a much higher DOW. Pilots give about $500/yr each. The current payout is only $1300/yr for each a qualified spouse and pilot. It's not that much money. I suspect it'll change at some point but right now it's not losing money.
- the money can be used for many different things. Even the Tricare for Life guys should have an opportunity to use it. Medicare part B enrollment, etc - there are lots of options
- I do think there will be some sort of nationalized health care in the next 10 years or so but even with that there will still be costs associated and I suspect VEBA will help out that. The program is modeled on VEBAs used at many other large institutions.

- HRA - appears to be a true giveaway to the 53+ age crowd - regardless of years in the company ($25K to a 53 yr old military retiree who has been working here for less than 10 years and nothing to the 52 year old with 20 years here - go figure). It does have an intention to hopefully "encourage" guys to retire at pre-65 as they'll have some help with health costs. Supposedly the NC looked at having it be "use or lose" money - if the guy doesn't use it by age 60 he loses it as opposed to the way it is....but the company said if the pilot loses it then it goes back in the company coffers - no win there so you might as well give it the crowd

- it can be argued whether the money spent on VEBA and HRA ($43.2 mil+ $25k/pilot over 53) was actual negotiating capital that the rest of the crew force could have used for pay in other places or whether it was above and beyond that and would ONLY be used for VEBA/HRA (as the NC and R&I guys say).

This guy is beyond belief!

Look at the # of excessed Capts. 30 on the Boeing, roughly 40 on the Bus and 40 on the MD (DC10 excesses don't count, they are included in the Bus and MD)

About 110 excessed Capts (pretty close to 100, and I bet DW was low-balling the #).

They of course excess to lower seats, causing excesses there, and so on until you are at the bottom. A nice set of dominos from DW. If affects ALOT more than 100 folks as DW apparently implied.

Spur,

He's saying that "only about 100 guys" are helping cause the pain. I would argue that number is low. Especially when we include those that haven't and won't retire when reaching age 60, since December.

You are correct in that there are many more than that, feeling the pain.

I attended the big NC roadshow shortly before the vote on the contract. I asked BC if I understood this provision correctly (that as an under 53 yr old at the time), that I was being left hanging in the wind in relation to this provision to be negotiated at some later date. HE said I understood correctly! ... Thanks for that ALPA and BC. Thanks a lot!

I'll be over 53, by the next contract. Maybe we can push for "Retro - HRA"!!

How did you vote on the CBA, just curious. If you voted no was it because of the HRA ?

I voted yes, as I agreed with the MEC that it was the best we could expect to get. It was in fact, a significant improvement from the old contract in many areas ... (just for the record, I voted NO on the FDA LOA as I DID NOT believe it was, or is for that matter, the best we can get!)

thanks for the reply Mayday, I happen to vote no. Not that I thought we would do any better but I could not look past the scheduling areas mostly. Hopefully we can see the retirement/health care issues evened out in the next CBA.:)

Agree.

What I am incredulous about is DW trying to put the 100ish number in the context of 4500 pilots. Essentially saying that his actions are only responsible for 1/45th of the problem. That is absurd. We are currently only 500 pilots overmanned. DWs 100+ buddies are 1/5 of this. At least 20+% of the problem is due to retro. When you account for the 100 pilots the Company wants to keep fat in the WBs the overmanned # drops to 400. This means the "100 guys ... adding to the problem" are actually at least 25% of the problem.

I would say that it is about as much the "crux of the problem" as the economy, non retirements, and 3 to 2 seat conversions.

you're not believing it's only 100 guys... talk about absurd.