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Ups/dhl

Old 07-25-2008, 04:02 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER View Post
"Or if the glass is half-full, it could mean the IPA pilots doing the flying for DHL in Europe/Asia."

Don't be so sure that it won't be DHL that moves the UPS freight in other countries.

If the UPS/DHL deal is inked, There is an extremely likely possibility that UPS boxes will move on any one of the hundreds of local DHL planes based in one of the dozens of countries around the world. If you think your contract is strong and solid enough to prevent this, you may be in for a nasty surprise. DHL has been playing shell games for years with boxes, taxes, and regulations. They are experts at this and it will be next to impossible to track and prove who has your freight on board - and then enforce your rights - when this all happens half a world away.

I'm not saying you don't have a good contract and a valid claim to your freight. I'm just saying that you shouldn't assume you won't have a fight on your hands. Once this camel gets his nose into your tent, you're going to be dealing with the beast for the rest of your life.

Driver

Here's a very likely scenario. Our contract with UPS allows UPS to use common carriage deliver packages to locations around the world where volume is not great enough to warrant putting a browntail aircraft on. UPS instead utilizes the belly space on pax carriers or buys space on other freighters for the small amount of volume needed in those locations. I can see UPS making a deal with DHL to utilize their large network of contracted lift to carry those packages that now go common carriage on other carriers.
DHL does have great exposure around the world and it would allow UPS to greatly simplify it's sub-browntail lift carriage.
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Old 07-25-2008, 05:58 AM
  #12  
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Wouldn't it have been easier to put it under the
thread I already started earlier with the same quote? (UPS/DHL)


Well, at least Flybycable posts a link to the story you’re quoting…

http://www.scdigest.com/assets/newsviews/08-07-07-1.pdf



I’ve said it before and will say it again – this deal is very bad news for UPS pilots. My friends who work for DHL in Germany tell me that if we think UPS likes to be in control we ain’t seen nothing yet.

I think that once UPS and DHL management teams get used to dealing with each other on a daily basis they’ll try to expand this deal by inviting a third airline into the mix. Then we’ll be doing all DHL flying in the US, DHL will do our flying in Europe and the third airline will be doing all the flying for the two of us in Asia.

Control is one thing, making even more money is an even bigger thing.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong but…
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:10 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Wouldn't it have been easier to put it under the
thread I already started earlier with the same quote? (UPS/DHL)


Well, at least Flybycable posts a link to the story you’re quoting…

http://www.scdigest.com/assets/newsviews/08-07-07-1.pdf



I’ve said it before and will say it again – this deal is very bad news for UPS pilots. My friends who work for DHL in Germany tell me that if we think UPS likes to be in control we ain’t seen nothing yet.

I think that once UPS and DHL management teams get used to dealing with each other on a daily basis they’ll try to expand this deal by inviting a third airline into the mix. Then we’ll be doing all DHL flying in the US, DHL will do our flying in Europe and the third airline will be doing all the flying for the two of us in Asia.

Control is one thing, making even more money is an even bigger thing.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong but…
Well, I agree with you. But it looks like history is going to repeat itself eventually. When Astar was DHL, and ABX was ABF, none of us thought we could get kicked to the curb like we have. It can happen, even to the biggest. It isn't hard for corporations to do, as we've seen here. We didn't see it coming till it was too late. It would be great if the crews at UPS could stop the outsourcing trend, as they're the only ones big enough to do it. Though it would appear the majority thinks this could never happen to them. Maybe they're right, but I sure wouldn't want to take that chance.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:20 AM
  #14  
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Since all of the cargo growth is international, the outsourcing trends will put a big damper on any kind of growth at UPS. This is just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong, but I see the writing on the wall. As far as growth of the airline at UPS, I think it about as big as its going to get. Future growth will be primarily from US to international destinations as foreign country point to point flying will probably be done by other contracted carriers.

I'm not a doom and gloom guy by any stretch of the imagination, but I see this as simple reality.
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:37 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Wouldn't it have been easier to put it under the
thread I already started earlier with the same quote? (UPS/DHL)


Well, at least Flybycable posts a link to the story you’re quoting…

http://www.scdigest.com/assets/newsviews/08-07-07-1.pdf



I’ve said it before and will say it again – this deal is very bad news for UPS pilots. My friends who work for DHL in Germany tell me that if we think UPS likes to be in control we ain’t seen nothing yet.

I think that once UPS and DHL management teams get used to dealing with each other on a daily basis they’ll try to expand this deal by inviting a third airline into the mix. Then we’ll be doing all DHL flying in the US, DHL will do our flying in Europe and the third airline will be doing all the flying for the two of us in Asia.

Control is one thing, making even more money is an even bigger thing.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong but…


You're paranoia is getting the best of you. Even before the DHL deal was announced the entire UPS global air network of browntail flying was about as big as it was going to get as far as destinations served. There might be a handful of new gateways opened up around the world in the future, but what we have is about as big as it's ever going to be. You guys are worried about losing flying to DHL to destinations that UPS crews would never do in the first place. I'm talking about flying to eastern Europe, Africa and other remote locations around the world. These areas are where DHL excels. UPS will never have the volume to dedicate putting a browntail aircraft to those destinations, so it's a mute point. UPS could very well utilize DHL contracted lift to service those areas which UPS now uses common carriage or block space sub-load lift.

You UPS guys need to read article 1 of the contract. We are guaranteed ALL the international flying that we are currently doing. UPS and their lawyers have already acknowledged this and said that there will be no using DHL at the expense of IPA crews. I know that your paranoia and general distrust of UPS management is well founded, but you guys are really making more out of this than what it is. DHL is simply switching contractors for it's N. American air lift. Over half our flying is now international. Do you really expect UPS to shrink to less than half it's size? You guys seem to think that we will just hand over half our aircraft and all our long range aircraft to DHL.
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:08 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by FlyByCable View Post
You're paranoia is getting the best of you. Even before the DHL deal was announced the entire UPS global air network of browntail flying was about as big as it was going to get as far as destinations served. There might be a handful of new gateways opened up around the world in the future, but what we have is about as big as it's ever going to be. You guys are worried about losing flying to DHL to destinations that UPS crews would never do in the first place. I'm talking about flying to eastern Europe, Africa and other remote locations around the world. These areas are where DHL excels. UPS will never have the volume to dedicate putting a browntail aircraft to those destinations, so it's a mute point. UPS could very well utilize DHL contracted lift to service those areas which UPS now uses common carriage or block space sub-load lift.

You UPS guys need to read article 1 of the contract. We are guaranteed ALL the international flying that we are currently doing. UPS and their lawyers have already acknowledged this and said that there will be no using DHL at the expense of IPA crews. I know that your paranoia and general distrust of UPS management is well founded, but you guys are really making more out of this than what it is. DHL is simply switching contractors for it's N. American air lift. Over half our flying is now international. Do you really expect UPS to shrink to less than half it's size? You guys seem to think that we will just hand over half our aircraft and all our long range aircraft to DHL.
Article 1 indicates that we'll fly our routes as long as the loads and routes are profitable and if not they can be subcontracted as you see happening in south america flying for past 4 yrs, So if our volume is being re routed and ups can show that our flights are not carrying enough load it will be a matter of time before they close that segmet and be given to another carrier, in this case DHL. Not having a doom and gloom scenario just a reality.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:17 PM
  #17  
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DHL came to UPS for a solution to their massive problems - not the other way around.

To think that DHL is setting conditions for UPS is funny. UPS and FedEx could just let them wither on the vine and die. UPS is in the drivers seat for sure.

The ABX and Astar guys are just hoping that misery will have a little company, but the fact is that just because they are about to be out of a job, doesn't mean UPS pilots will be too. I know they would like to see it, but alas, it isn't true just because they hope it is.

Sorry guys. You made a bad decision to work for an unstable company like Astar or ABX, and as much as you'd like to spread the doom and gloom around, you're just wasting time on a message board that could be better served working on resumes.
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson View Post
DHL came to UPS for a solution to their massive problems - not the other way around.

To think that DHL is setting conditions for UPS is funny. UPS and FedEx could just let them wither on the vine and die. UPS is in the drivers seat for sure.

The ABX and Astar guys are just hoping that misery will have a little company, but the fact is that just because they are about to be out of a job, doesn't mean UPS pilots will be too. I know they would like to see it, but alas, it isn't true just because they hope it is.

Sorry guys. You made a bad decision to work for an unstable company like Astar or ABX, and as much as you'd like to spread the doom and gloom around, you're just wasting time on a message board that could be better served working on resumes.
Well, you are correct - UPS is in the drivers’ seat on this deal and no one claims that DHL is planning on controlling UPS in the future. However, it is very feasible that UPS together with DHL will control our future by cooperating in ways that’d save them money by decreasing our flying or even by freezing any future growth in our flying.

I'm not talking tomorrow or the next year, however 5 years from now I can see us resurrecting this thread all over again when totally out of the blue there's an announcement of UPS outsourcing some flying to DHL. I might be wrong and I sincerely hope that I’m wrong but it'll be years before we know that for sure.

As far as Abx and Astar guys/gals making the "wrong decision" - I think that's very unfair of you to say because many of those pilots applied to numerous airlines and ended up going to the one that called them first. Many waited for years to be called by UPS or Fedex but the call never came.

Also, many believed in what their management was telling them - their jobs were safe and there would be huge growth in the future.

Of course, Fly-by-cable says that our jobs are safe so I'm sure we'll be fine, right?...
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:10 PM
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Five years from now, DHL will not even exist.
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ned Ryerson View Post
Five years from now, DHL will not even exist.
I seriously doubt that - internationally DHL is much bigger than UPS or Fedex... Can't prove it but that's my understanding...
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