Night flying and fatigue
 

I have a question about FedEx and UPS and the type of flying you do. My general experience is seeing FedEx planes flying at night. Obviously if you are trying to ship a package "overnight", it makes sense that there is a lot of night flying. I have also heard a lot about arrival and departure pushes in MEM.

So my question is does most of FedEx/UPS flying happen at night, or is that a stereotype. Is there much day flying? How do you guys like doing back of the clock flying? When are the big arrival/departure pushes in MEM?

Any insight on this subject would be great.

The bulk of the flying that comprises the FedEx Express signature product involves flying at night. However, we also move FedEx freight that is not as time-sensitive and we move the mail - - primarily Express Mail and First Class mail, if I understand correctly. Consequently, the airplanes move around the clock, and there's a good share of day flying. The big sort for FedEx Next Day products is in the middle of the night, and the big sort for the rest of it is in the middle of the day.






- The truth only hurts if it should -

Most freight moves after sundown. FedEx does have daylight flying, though the majority is at night-same with other freight companies.

I heard somewhere that UPS is about 60/40 night/day. This includes ALL operations around the world though. To be REAL day domestic, one must be very senior.

To address your "how do you guys like it" part of the question: it would be okay if I could stay on one schedule all the time, or for months at a time. But this switching from a week of days to a week of nights (domestic) or switching back and forth every other day (international) is really draining.

I was a cop before flying and we rotated our schedules every three months. That was okay because I adjusted to the schedule in a few days and them kept it for a while.

Working nights in any industry is hard I'm sure. I worked night shift for most of the winter at the FBO I work at part time at and it was tough. It me four or five days to adjust to the schedule, and only one or two days to get back to normal. The hardest part was staying awake once the sun came up. I had a FX F/O notice me nodding off while standing on top of the truck fueling a DC-10 that was turning one morning. Not good. I'm happy I don't work that shift during the week any more. I still do it on the weekends because they want a warm body there. I clock in and go to sleep.

I found that if I fly at night, I have to MAKE myself sleep 8 hours+ to feel good. I usually wake up around 12:30 - 1:30pm and am tired but not tired enough to keep sleeping. If I just lay there and make myself sleep a few hours, it is not too bad. I am pretty new to this though....we'll see how the next 29 years goes (if the job lasts that long).

Too Tired
 

Too Tired to answer this question

Varies by individuals, but line purity (AM or PM sleeping) certainly makes it easier. Seniority is key for protecting Quality of Life issues (in my case, minimizing circadian disruptions is essential).

I don't know for certain, but I would say that there is minimal difference between the schedules of Delta and UPS as it pertains to international flying. We are becoming more Honk Kong to Anchorage routes as opposed to Huntsville to Louisville. So pick your poison--international flying crossing multiple time zones, IMO, is harder on your bosy than flying at night domestically.

Place bag over your head and breath deeply
 

Dam, your so young, and new at this, you probably don't have bags under your eyes (yet) ??:eek:

Another Cargo fatigue accident?
 

Cargo pilots don't need Part 117 rest rules ...

Fantastic Tech Is Making Pilot Fatigue Even More Perplexing | WIRED


:confused:

Last I knew, (so YES it may be different now), the pax airlines fly to an international destination from the US, layover, then return to the US. Most likely the same country a few times a month.

Different from our system a flight continues "around the world" with different crews every 6-12 hours. Different layover countries. The crews then layover for 24 hours waiting for the same flight the next day ... this is a simplistic example. I didn't even want to get into the whole "guest" FO lines.

But the point is, the cargo system is very different from pax and creates different schedules.

Anyone with experience in both care to elaborate ?

Decade-old necropost...solid

But thats the beauty of the internet. Bury something, let it rot for awhile, dig it up, roll it over, and have your way with it years later. :eek::D

This.

Amazon has spoken. There will be a 'job', it will just pay a whole lot less.

Sure.

International is essentially the same for both cargo and passengers, except that I've found cargo has longer layovers and the trips are longer in duration. Cargo trips seem to be around the world type trips, or half-way around and back. The passenger company had 2/3-day out and backs with 20-ish hour layovers. I did not like those at all. In my opinion, the FedEx RFO trips are the best kept secret assuming you can hold them. 3-4 days in Paris, sure. 3-4 days in Cologne or Mainz, Germany, only if you twist my arm.

At FedEx, there is a good amount of day flying, but domestically the night flying dominates. To fly days you will need to be senior. There's typically two types of day flying. You can have "AM Out-n-backs" which start at 2-4AM in the morning, fly out to a destination, then return to the hub before or around noon. Or you can have a 2-3PM takeoff to destination, return back to the hub around 10-midnight or layover and return in the morning by noon.

At FedEx when flying night schedules, I've found that as long as I can try to get to sleep before sun up, and sleep 8-9 hours and get a good work out in, I feel great. Just like another said, if I only get a few hours of sleep I feel groggy all day.

When I flew passengers, the hardest flying for me were the early departure flights (5AMs 6AMs) when FedEx is typically landing and going to the hotel. Depending on where you lived and how far your drive to work was, you could be getting up at 2AM to get to work. Then like typical pax flying, you flew 3, 4, or maybe 5 legs with a long duty day. Those days to me were killers. I'm not sure how FAR117 might have changed this.

Moral of the story, there's good flying at both, if senior. There's more variety and day flying at passenger airlines. But I believe the passenger flying is much harder except for the fatigue: more traffic, delays, SWAP, and passenger/FA issues. Cargo is typically direct to destination fly as fast as the company or jet will allow, land and go to hotel.

Hope this helps.

FAR pt117
 

Cargo pilots don't get fatigued. The US government say so.

Call in fatigued:
Scheduler can't wont help
You must speak with the DO
Expect a lengthy repetitive interrogation
This is recorded on the DO LOG
Your Fleet Capt will read this
Then they will call you as if they knew nothing, again expect interrogation
The incident will be recorded on your internal file.
So they know exactly how many times you called in sick, fatigued,etc.

You're right! FAR 117 is much worse than FAR 121+ our FDX ALPA contract.

That's not the experience I've had. The D/O does have to hear you say "it's unsafe for me to continue". Don't be afraid to say it. If you you are fatigued it's true. Perhaps with new fatigue mitigating protocols there is a report to fill out. Overall, I feel pretty well covered and I'm not afraid to call fatigued for myself or crew if necessary.

In contrast to another's post earlier, I find the international long haul much easier than domestic next day type of flying. With the long haul, you get 2.0 to 2:45 rest periods and I find that really helps during the flight and it's much easier to get up, move around, and cook some food than at the pax carriers. The layovers are typically 24 hrs or longer so you can catch up to a certain extent - I often get get numerous periods of 8+ hrs.

Domestic nights I find difficult. IF you are on time you can get 2 maybe 3 hrs of sleep (if you are really lucky) in the sleep rooms then back to the hotel no later than 7am (some locations are earlier). I just can't sleep more than 5 hrs during the day regardless if the hotel is quiet, dark, and cool. Then I'm all out of whack during my days off resulting in chronic fatigue. International, I'm tired during my trips and about two days afterward. Ironically, at the regionals I used to be able to fly standups (high speeds, momma trips, whatever you know them as) without much issue. I think the key is to find what you can do easily and try to bid those schedules. The hours of operation at FX/UPS are challenging but could be flown without much fatigue IF scheduling limits and practices would be considered by either company.

Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Can you please elaborate?

We need scheduling improvements to
mitigate fatigue caused by current scheduling practices. I took the assumption it was a common problem based off postings from guys at both companies.

One leg (about an hour or less each way :D) out to the layover and one leg back would be a nice start. Cnx with pay for weather or snow events. I won't hold my breath on either one.

I guess the reason for my question is two fold. One, just curious if you have some specific changes you think might really help to mitigate fatigue. Two is based on your own admission that domestically you can't sleep longer than 5 hours during the day. Short of paying you to stay home or getting another pilot to fly half your schedule, I'm not sure what sort of scheduling improvements are going to mitigate your fatigue if you can't sleep in the first place. Flying(working) between ~2200 and ~0700 is unnatural and there's only so much that can be done via work rules to make it manageable. The biggest factor is really good sleep. If you can't get adequate rest during the day on your layover, relying on a recliner nap for a couple of hours during the sort is going to take its toll no matter what your contract says.

Perhaps then the contract can ensure the schedules allow guys to get adequate rest during the day and/or rely on sort periods and sleep rooms to meaningfully compensate for a lack thereof. I'll let guys who regularly fly night domestic to comment on that aspect, perhaps on another thread where the focus is on that subject. But even with my limited exposure to them I have more than a few ideas on how to ameliorate the experience without simply removing myself from the problem as you have proposed. My comment was aimed more at the general disregard for circadian rhythms and to suggest to the OP that even though the schedules are currently fatiguing they could be improved.

Brown has pay protections and lots of one- in-one-out pairings.

First off, I was joking about cancelling with pay for wx and purple has plenty of pay protections and one-in/one-out trips.

My real point is that you keep referring to what the contract can do for us to help with fatigue, and I would like to understand what you mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTFF (Post 2101472)

Perhaps then the contract can ensure the schedules allow guys to get adequate rest during the day and/or rely on sort periods and sleep rooms to meaningfully compensate for a lack thereof

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Maybe your schedules differ greatly from ours. Unless you’re flying an AM out and back at purple, if things are on schedule, you’re usually at the hotel by early morning.
If you show up in the hotel lobby sometime around sunrise, immediately get a room, it’s quiet, with a nice bed, good curtains and you don’t need to be back at the jet for 13 to 15 hours – what more can written words on a contract do for you to ensure you get adequate rest during the day? That’s kind of up to you, isn’t it? Back at the hub, if you have access to a quiet sleep room, with clean linens, a bed, a phone for a wakeup call and shower facilities – again, what is the contract going to do to ensure you get a nap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTFF (Post 2101472)

But even with my limited exposure to them I have more than a few ideas on how to ameliorate the experience without simply removing myself from the problem as you have proposed. My comment was aimed more at the general disregard for circadian rhythms and to suggest to the OP that even though the schedules are currently fatiguing they could be improved.

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I’m really asking (and have several times). What “scheduling limits and practices” and “scheduling improvements” do you have in mind that would help mitigate fatigue? We’re all in the same biz and unfortunately our contract is what it is for a while. You say you have more than a few ideas on how to “ameliorate” the domestic night freight experience we’ve all done at one point or another in our time at brown or purple. Let’s hear them.

In my experience, the “general disregard for circadian rhythm” occurs on the international side of things at Fedex. Flying around Asia for 10 hours of duty all night and landing at NRT at 0800L and leaving 24 hours later to fly another 10 hours all day is the definition of circadian disregard. From a scheduling perspective, it’s highly efficient since the two guys who brought the flight in 24 hours ahead of you are ready to take your jet and start their work day. Ending those would be high on my list of contract changes – but that would mean more crews, higher costs in the name of safety. Maybe next time.

Domestically, at least you swap your body clock to nights (as best one can) and stay that way for the week.

Both situations are going to create fatigue and there’s only so much a contract can do to mitigate that. Putting limits on numbers of legs, duty period length, and ensuring proper rest facilities can all be put in writing (and it is). If you can’t sleep when you’re given the opportunity, I don’t see how you can point a finger at the contract and cry foul.

You had some pretty good advice in your first post. “Find what you can do easily and try to bid those schedules”. It sounds like domestic ain’t your bag, since you can’t sleep during the day. I prefer international as well, but, as I’m sure you know, that has its own set of challenges. When I did fly domestic, I was able to sleep in the day. It was rare that I didn’t get at least 7 hours and 8-9 was pretty normal. I didn’t bother trying to nap on the turn at the hub for fear of ruining my day sleep (plus I usually felt pretty good anyway) - lucky I guess.

At brown there are more than a few lines where you'll routinely find yourself flying 180 degrees off of what you just did. For instance a flight leaving out of Louisville in the afternoon for ONT, followed by a 2100 show for the next go which is a slog out to PHL with a couple hours on the ground, then back to SDF. Two sleep cycles in 24 hours is pretty difficult. Or, ask the guys who fly it about the OAK death march. These are schedules where it is virtually impossible to get decent rest. In fact, I'm surprised there aren't more fatigue calls on them, but that's another story. Sounds like at FDX, it may be a bit easier. I think this is the contract language FTFF is talking about.

No, we have those at purple also, I think Adler has just forget about them!

I'm not claiming ANY expertise in every facet of our schedules and I know there are bad ones. I even gave an example of one of my personal gripes being the 24 hour layover (or 180 degrees off as Tanker -driver put it so well). Those are bad juju no matter where on the planet you are encountering them.

I was simply asking for some specifics because I would like to know how we can make things better.

My only issue with some of Mr. FTFF's complaints were that they seemed to mostly be the result of his inability to sleep more than 5 hours during the day. I guess my mistake was assuming he was talking about a basic series of night hub turns over the course of a week rather than some of the "throw a dart at the calendar" schedules that get made up out of the leftovers. If you have a reasonably stable, homogenous night schedule that doesn't have crazy 180 flops to your duty times and you can't sleep on your layover - it's going to suck and nothing in the contract is going to change that. My apologies if I went off on a unrelated tangent.

When, we as an industry, start calling in fatigued whenever we are tired regardless of location or where in the trip we are will it force a change in practice. Nothing will ever change as long as the jet moves.

Kind of unlikely that we have these at FedEx. I'm assuming you must be talking about a 27 hour layover in ONT, which still wouldn't make you legal to go over 8 in 24 for the flights from ONT-PHL-MEM, which would probably be over 8 in a night time duty period, and also wouldn't be legal to be scheduled for such a lengthy duty day at night.

Of course operational emergency, or even flying to operational limits changes the duty periods, but they can't actually put this on the schedule.

Most ass kicking flight I ever made was on the B747-300 Seattle to Shanghai, non stop of course. 1730 LCL Seattle DPT and ARVL at 1730 LCL Shanghai. 13 hours block time with the Sun in the middle of the windshield; it never goes up, and it never goes down, right in the middle of the windshield. By the time you block, in you are so stupid you can't remember your own phone number. 60 hours later, same thing in reverse, except in the dark this time. Probably takes about 100 gallons of Jack Daniels to kill the same amount of brain cells. Any questions??? Cheers! :)

The OP is asking about express air cargo schedules, I gave him a perspective and included a jab at UPS scheduling at the same time. If you're of the mindset that your contract language is sufficient regarding scheduling at FedEx then I retract my assumption that you guys need language improvements. My EB is currently negotiating for me and my IPA brothers and sisters so Ill let them speak on this issue. If that's not enough, I just don't feel like debating this subject.

I can't speak for Purple or Brown, but at my former employer, having the FAR117 duty limits would help mitigate fatigue. For back side of clock Ops, having trips routinely built to 14-15 hours of duty (with multiple legs, of course like 4 per night) is not conducive to good QOL.
For an example of a 2100 Domicile reference show time out based trip to hub, the FAR 117 duty limits would be 12 hours for 1-2 total flight segments, 11 hours for 3-4 total segments. Cutting out such pairings would help mitigate fatigue. (i.e. instead of release time of 1100-1130ish domicile time the next morning, release time would have to be no later than 0800 the following morning for a 3 or 4 leg trip sequence.)

Adler's suggestion of all short non-stop flights do help in that for those times that I only got 5 hours of sleep, a 16 hour layover (vs a 10-11 hour) would enable me to squeeze in a 1 or 2 hour evening catnap prior to departure.

I'm not an expert on 117 at all. So, all I can do is repeat the gist of what I've read myself and the feedback I've received from friends in the pax world flying under it. It sounds to me, in general terms, that 117 has about an equal balance of pros and cons when it comes to attempting to apply it to the rather unique scheduling demands at FedEx. I'm not sure it would be a huge improvement for us and in some case would significantly diminish the overall quality of our schedules. That's a semi-educated opinion, so perhaps someone else has better info.

Our current contract limits duty started at 2100 to 11:30 (scheduled) and any duty started between 0100-0459 is limited to 9 hours (scheduled). We don't specify duty limits related to number of legs, however, it's extremely rare to have more than 3 legs during any single duty period.

Again, speaking in general terms, most well crafted contracts at top tier companies, passenger or cargo, are usually already more restrictive than FAR limitations. The pilots who would really benefit from FAR changes are the ones slugging it out at companies that use the FARs as their limits and push their pilots as close to those as they can.

This was less a "suggestion" and more a tongue-in-cheek reference to the easier trips most pilots find desirable if they have the choice. There's good and bad - that still fall within the contract. Some are very far from the limits and others push right up against them. Flying one leg out MEM-BHM, takeoff at 0400, maybe spend 5 minutes at cruise before top of descent, block in before 0500 and be at the hotel 15 minutes later is pretty good duty. 16 hour layover, leave the hotel just after 2100 and you're back in MEM at 2330. Rinse and repeat all week. Or you could do two legs out to Grand Junction via COS for an 11:55 layover and two legs back later that night. Windshield.....Bug..........otherwise known as seniority. :D