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UPS Threadjack divert (777 Pay= Airbus Pay FDX)

Old 09-27-2008, 03:01 PM
  #1  
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Default UPS Threadjack divert (777 Pay= Airbus Pay FDX)

Since UPS was threadjacking their thread thought it appropriate to divert to our own thread <g>

757upspilot stated
"I have no objection to FO pay going UP, I have objection to the change from 12 to 15 years to obtain max pay and the fact that max pay failed( with the concessions on health care costs, etc) to even pace inflation.
Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves.

Find Lebo and have him explain it to you"

We agree on F/O pay, we agree on the 12-15 year migration, we agree on max pay failing to pace inflation, Lebo helped present this current CBA, and don't need the explanation from GL. I understand the frustration. However, our demographics include a lot of folks at the very junior end of the seniority that are flying widebody intl. They deserved more and we brought it up in this CBA. Next CBA we can crank up everyones now that we have a good base.

Last edited by SaltyDog; 09-27-2008 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
Since UPS was threadjacking their thread thought it appropriate to divert to our own thread <g>

757upspilot stated
"I have no objection to FO pay going UP, I have objection to the change from 12 to 15 years to obtain max pay and the fact that max pay failed( with the concessions on health care costs, etc) to even pace inflation.
Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves.

Find Lebo and have him explain it to you"

We agree on F/O pay, we agree on the 12-15 year migration, we agree on max pay failing to pace inflation, Lebo helped present this current CBA, and don't need the explanation from GL. I understand the frustration. However, our demographics include a lot of folks at the very junior end of the seniority that are flying widebody intl. They deserved more and we brought it up in this CBA. Next CBA we can crank up everyones now that we have a good base.
You have got to be kidding.

Four people show up for a union meeting
We don't get enough votes to ammend our bylaws yea or nay
We have over 25% of our group who aren't even set up to vote.
We have pilots making up school yard names for our seniorpilots like a bunch of little kids on a play ground.
After two years we have so little unity the company routinely ignores the contract and won't even show up at mediation with the materials the government has requested, why because they know the union has no backing.

We gave up Capt IRO's , I am sure that the FO in this seat is real happy with his higher FO pay
We reduced the vacations in the summer, I am sure the junior Captain and FO are real happy not even getting to bid a summer vacation
We didn't implement meaningful Caps on line builds or open time, How many Captains seats we gave up on this one, well you figure it out
We gave away Captains seats in all of these areas lots of FO's at higher pay that would have had the opportunity to be Captains, one of these days they will figure it out.



We are going to lose and lose big on the next contract. Unity my ass, I watched the a great organization disintegrate, largely due to the junior pilots, and EB that couldn't learn to play together.

You should talk to Lebo because in one of the presentations he stated clearly that going for pay in the middle was an error and that the numbers for career earnings the top pay scale needed to bump up. Why because you are in it longer.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
Since UPS was threadjacking their thread thought it appropriate to divert to our own thread <g>
Good idea to create our own thread...

"...Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."


757upspilot - can you please explain what you mean by that?

The way I see it the senior pilots such as yourself got the highest and frankly an unprecedented pay bump one could ever hope for - an extra 5 years of top captain pay! That’s a huge amount of extra money none of you could possibly be planning on getting since no one knew if and how the new law would be passed.

I really hope this won't turn into age 65 bashing party but I'm truly trying to understand why you think that the junior pilots "...one day [will] figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."

The way I see it, and obviously I'm very biased here, the senior pilots are the ones who literally won a multi-million dollar lottery so if anything in the next contract we should be asking for the FOs to be making maybe 70 or 80% of the captain's pay since it'll take 15 years plus to upgrade and some will never even make it to the left seat. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for saying that but I’m just expressing my honest opinion here and from talking to my friends I know I’m not alone to be thinking that way.

In my view due to the December 13th 2007 legislature, which was driven primarily by senior (or more accurately older) pilots at many airlines, the current contract isn’t really a pro-junior but rather a pro-senior pilot contract.

I am really trying to understand your view so please do not slam me for disagreeing with you but rather give me some arguments that a junior pilot, like myself, would find reasonable. Right now I'm perplexed to hear some senior captains actually think we have a "Robin Hood" contract which takes the senior pilots' dough and redistributes it to the junior guys/gals.

Think about it - why would we, junior pilots, care about bringing up senior captain pay rate when many of us will never even get a chance to be captains? …and if we do it’ll be just for a few years…

I hope you don't think my comment is disparaging toward you or other senior pilots - I simply think that realistically we should be looking for a contract which gives us the highest overall benefits during our entire tenure with the company, not just the last few years…

I hope to see some good pro and against arguments here…

Thanks…
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Good idea to create our own thread...

"...Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."


757upspilot - can you please explain what you mean by that?

The way I see it the senior pilots such as yourself got the highest and frankly an unprecedented pay bump one could ever hope for - an extra 5 years of top captain pay! That’s a huge amount of extra money none of you could possibly be planning on getting since no one knew if and how the new law would be passed.

I really hope this won't turn into age 65 bashing party but I'm truly trying to understand why you think that the junior pilots "...one day [will] figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."

The way I see it, and obviously I'm very biased here, the senior pilots are the ones who literally won a multi-million dollar lottery so if anything in the next contract we should be asking for the FOs to be making maybe 70 or 80% of the captain's pay since it'll take 15 years plus to upgrade and some will never even make it to the left seat. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for saying that but I’m just expressing my honest opinion here and from talking to my friends I know I’m not alone to be thinking that way.

In my view due to the December 13th 2007 legislature, which was driven primarily by senior (or more accurately older) pilots at many airlines, the current contract isn’t really a pro-junior but rather a pro-senior pilot contract.

I am really trying to understand your view so please do not slam me for disagreeing with you but rather give me some arguments that a junior pilot, like myself, would find reasonable. Right now I'm perplexed to hear some senior captains actually think we have a "Robin Hood" contract which takes the senior pilots' dough and redistributes it to the junior guys/gals.

Think about it - why would we, junior pilots, care about bringing up senior captain pay rate when many of us will never even get a chance to be captains? …and if we do it’ll be just for a few years…

I hope you don't think my comment is disparaging toward you or other senior pilots - I simply think that realistically we should be looking for a contract which gives us the highest overall benefits during our entire tenure with the company, not just the last few years…

I hope to see some good pro and against arguments here…

Thanks…

Do you understand that the majority of Captains are not going to hang around past 60.


As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it.

You need to look beyond the end of your nose and you will be able to figure it out.

If you can't you are sitting in the correct seat
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:26 PM
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Not kidding, you yourself just demonstrated that apathy is more prevalent than division. Correct, It is pathethic our apathy at the union meetings. However, it is able to be fixed. How? First, the EB has 2 meetings 8 hours apart every so often and expect high turnout? They need to have them 2 weeks in a row. That way they capture much more audience. Second, they need to have folks helping guide them out of the rat maze at SDF. As it is, they have no schedule. Sure, we are all grownups, but if an ANC or ONT pilot shows up, haven't been in SDF in awhile, they are not going to risk going through all the unkowns to attend the meeting during the sort. That is my empirical observations from questions I've asked. Administrative resolution would help folks choose to attend. The CB vote too is indicative of poor presentation by the EB IMO. The EB is invisible where it counts, on the line and at the sorts. Fix that visibility and would bet that folks would be more involved. It is a flesh and blood business being a union. Emails/websites and all are good, but if it is all faceless and electronic, am not surprised apathy sets in. Reason early IPA was so successful was it was personable and personal. You know that, I saw the end of that as a newhire. Now we are electronic and impersonal. We watch all our folks go to ANC and we rarely if ever really capture there personal attention.
Regarding pay, your Capt argument used to be true. No longer. The reality is, took me 10 years to make Capt (first available upgrade). That was before 65, and ANC domicile. Excepting the aberration of opening ANC, the move to the left seat is closer to the 13-15 year point. 65 assured that reality. Also, our demographic while opening ANC was hiring older folks in late 30's all the way to 50+ since UPS needed widebody experience to appease the FAA. Lots of furloughed folks from the legacies and you have a chopped up career like many of us have had. These folks will be F/O's much longer than they will be Capts. You want unity? Tell these 40-45 year olds hired in the last 2 years that they should support higher Capt pay using your argument. The reponse is predictable. <g>

Last edited by SaltyDog; 09-27-2008 at 08:32 PM. Reason: speling
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 757upspilot View Post
Do you understand that the majority of Captains are not going to hang around past 60.


As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it.

You need to look beyond the end of your nose and you will be able to figure it out.

If you can't you are sitting in the correct seat
No I don’t understand it because I don’t believe it. Just check the retirements at all airlines since the new legislation – with a very few exceptions the retirements have pretty much stopped.

Have you met one captain who seriously wants to retire at 60? Is that your plan? Because if so, you’re the very first captain I’ve ‘talked’ to here at Big Brown who seriously wants to leave at 60.

Can you tell me why you think most captains won’t hang around after 60? Many will say that they ‘probably’ will retire at 60 but I say no freakin’ way. Why would they?

They are at the very top of the pay scale, have the best schedules and enjoy tons of vacation time – why would they retire? It just wouldn’t be logical to retire and therefore they won’t!

I flew with a junior captain who predicted that most pilots will stay until 63 (at the very least) and then will try to use medical leave of absence for the last 2 years or so. I think he’s right on the money.

...and as far as the rest of your comment, I AM looking beyond the rest of my nose and that's why I posted my question to you which you dismissed with a simple "...As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it..."

Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 09-27-2008 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
... Lots of furloughed folks from the legacies and you have a chopped up career like many of us have had. These folks will be F/O's much longer than they will be Capts. You want unity? Tell these 40-45 year olds hired in the last 2 years that they should support higher Capt pay using your argument. The reponse is predictable. <g>
That's how the vast majority of FOs I've been talking to feel about this issue which is why I was hoping for some arguments that'd let me understand the other point of view.

Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 09-27-2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 757upspilot View Post
Do you understand that the majority of Captains are not going to hang around past 60.


As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it.

You need to look beyond the end of your nose and you will be able to figure it out.

If you can't you are sitting in the correct seat
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MAJORITY OF CAPTAINS ARE NOT GOING TO HANG AROUND PAST 60.
Really. Where do you get your stats because from where i'm sitting majority are still on the property and planning to stay until whenever. Age 60 was modified in jan and there is only been 30 people out of 155 walking and if my math is correct that's only 20% and this is hardly a majority.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 757upspilot View Post
Do you understand that the majority of Captains are not going to hang around past 60.


As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it.

You need to look beyond the end of your nose and you will be able to figure it out.

If you can't you are sitting in the correct seat
How do you prove the majority are retiring at 60? So far the record is against that reality. We can pull up names if you want using all the folks that stayed on in 2008 and those that retired. The vast majority are staying. If the 2008'class' is any indication, very few fron the 2009 age 60 class are leaving. I have no animosity. None of us had a say. It is a reality that is no different than the one hundred things that have changed since I entered aviation.
Name calling of our older folks: I have been called names my whole career. Usually it is not with malice. I have never used those terms and believe the majority see it like Roberto, with grace and understand the frustration junior folks have. I have immense respect for all of the over 60 folks since they built a great opportunity for me at UPS. Am indebted to all the original guys. However, 20 years changes the dynamics that cannot be ignored. Many of the old arguments are not valid in the current environment.

Sense of entitlement: We all have a sense of entitlement. Yours is expecting a higher than won pay scale for Capts. The junior folks had a sense of entitlement to make Capt before 10-12 years. Well, the dynamics have changed. All of us have to adjust our sense of entitlements. <g>

My true desire is to see an engaged union. I am a Chair and work within my lane but believe with emphasis the union can be much more engaged. The company will eat us as you predict if we don't become engaged. That is a leadership issue. Like I said earlier, flesh and blood contact is necessary.

BTW, for the time being, I am in the correct seat <VBG>

Last edited by SaltyDog; 09-27-2008 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE View Post
Good idea to create our own thread...

"...Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."


757upspilot - can you please explain what you mean by that?

The way I see it the senior pilots such as yourself got the highest and frankly an unprecedented pay bump one could ever hope for - an extra 5 years of top captain pay! That’s a huge amount of extra money none of you could possibly be planning on getting since no one knew if and how the new law would be passed.

I really hope this won't turn into age 65 bashing party but I'm truly trying to understand why you think that the junior pilots "...one day [will] figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."

The way I see it, and obviously I'm very biased here, the senior pilots are the ones who literally won a multi-million dollar lottery so if anything in the next contract we should be asking for the FOs to be making maybe 70 or 80% of the captain's pay since it'll take 15 years plus to upgrade and some will never even make it to the left seat. I’m sure I’ll get slammed for saying that but I’m just expressing my honest opinion here and from talking to my friends I know I’m not alone to be thinking that way.

In my view due to the December 13th 2007 legislature, which was driven primarily by senior (or more accurately older) pilots at many airlines, the current contract isn’t really a pro-junior but rather a pro-senior pilot contract.

I am really trying to understand your view so please do not slam me for disagreeing with you but rather give me some arguments that a junior pilot, like myself, would find reasonable. Right now I'm perplexed to hear some senior captains actually think we have a "Robin Hood" contract which takes the senior pilots' dough and redistributes it to the junior guys/gals.

Think about it - why would we, junior pilots, care about bringing up senior captain pay rate when many of us will never even get a chance to be captains? …and if we do it’ll be just for a few years…

I hope you don't think my comment is disparaging toward you or other senior pilots - I simply think that realistically we should be looking for a contract which gives us the highest overall benefits during our entire tenure with the company, not just the last few years…

I hope to see some good pro and against arguments here…

Thanks…
The top of the captain pay scale in the newest contract just barely kept pace with inflation from the 1998 contract. Run the numbers and you will agree. FO pay got boosted quite a bit, and it needed to be boosted because FO pay was a serious B scale on how it was figured under the 98 contract. The captains basically got a COLA raise in the last contract, no mas.

Our FO pay is most likely the highest percentage of captains pay in the industry. Thats good! But, we needed a real raise is captains pay as well, not just a COLA raise. That wouyld have benefited FO's as well. So what about the CUT that SO's took? I dont hear any complaints about that.

To get another thing straight, I am one of the most junior left seaters in the lower 48. I've been here 12.5 years, not 15. Many of the ANC guys have been here much less than that.

Or maybe you guys are arguing about something completely different in which case, Im all effed up.........:-)

Last edited by viktorbravo; 09-27-2008 at 06:07 PM.
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