FDX - Salary reality (inflation)
10-13-2008, 04:46 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 156
FDX - Salary reality (inflation)
Is anyone else working their butt off and still poor like me??
I keep reading all these threads about how good FedEx pilots have it, and UPS guys for that matter. I have been and airline pilot for 11 years or so now, 4 yrs at FDX and I have to admit that I am hurting in this economy and I don't think that I am the only one. And if I am struggling at the best place to work how the heck is everyone else making it?
My wife and I would really like to have some kids soon but don't know how we can make it on my salary alone. My wife just watched this lady financial expert on Oprah say that we should have 8 months of salary saved up before we go on single income...anyone here have that? Pilots made the same salary we make now in the late 70's and obviously the dollar does not go as far as it did back then. I grew up with a marine F4/ pax airline dad so I've been around this profession a long time and witnessed personally the lack of spending power.
The dollar is so crappy that it now costs money out of my pocket to get the internet in Dubai, because it exceeds the $25 dollar amount by the company. A normal dinner costs about $20 euro (somewhere around 30 dollars) and worse yet even beer costs on average 9 dollars US in Europe. Hell, even China is getting expensive. And for all you guys that eat Subway around the world even a "5$ footlong" meal ends up costing $8.50 out the door, and thats in the states, add a few more bones for other countries. Try and eat overseas for 2 weeks (reasonably healthy food) and get it under the per diem...good luck.
The other day while balancing the books, I pulled some reports on my Quicken and was shocked to see that my expenses have risen 32 percent over the last 2 years. After really looking at it, the new expense is due to higher prices on everything. Grocery visits that used to be 120 are 200. Gas stops that used to be 30 are 55. Cell phone that used to be 80 is 140. I'm not eating more, not driving more and not talking more than I used to.
We live well but pretty conservatively, our mortgage is about 2000 a month, we owe on 2 student loans with low interest rates (damn us for getting a good education), one car (almost payed off) and one credit card. I am telling you that after everybody gets paid there is not much left. I have been an MD11 FO for a little over a year and am making more than I ever have in my life and I am telling you my lifestyle has not improved one bit. On my big check on the 15th, a 5000 dollar paycheck results in a net of 2900 by the time taxes, FICA, healthcare, 401k, and insurance are taken out. And I usually work a little more than the normal 68 hour BLG , at $134 an hour, which sounds amazing to non airline folks. Supposedly I make 9K a month which is more like 5k take home if I'm lucky. And that includes per diem which of course I spent uh....eating of course. So unless you can eat mini snacks around the world you might as well take another couple hundred out of that.
So before I hear from the 20 year widebody Captains with 15 yrs as Captain and a Z06 telling me that I am spending money like a french wh*re..is there anyone in a similar situation?
I always thought I was pretty good at watching the books, but I am starting to get frustrated when there is not money for big items like new tires for the car or a new fridge when the old one breaks, or god forbid a vacation away from home.
Am I the one to find their wallet a bit light?
Laying it out there a bit here boys but spent the whole day passing out my paycheck and a little frustrated....
boost
P.S. I won't even get into how much I lost this week in my 401k!
I keep reading all these threads about how good FedEx pilots have it, and UPS guys for that matter. I have been and airline pilot for 11 years or so now, 4 yrs at FDX and I have to admit that I am hurting in this economy and I don't think that I am the only one. And if I am struggling at the best place to work how the heck is everyone else making it?
My wife and I would really like to have some kids soon but don't know how we can make it on my salary alone. My wife just watched this lady financial expert on Oprah say that we should have 8 months of salary saved up before we go on single income...anyone here have that? Pilots made the same salary we make now in the late 70's and obviously the dollar does not go as far as it did back then. I grew up with a marine F4/ pax airline dad so I've been around this profession a long time and witnessed personally the lack of spending power.
The dollar is so crappy that it now costs money out of my pocket to get the internet in Dubai, because it exceeds the $25 dollar amount by the company. A normal dinner costs about $20 euro (somewhere around 30 dollars) and worse yet even beer costs on average 9 dollars US in Europe. Hell, even China is getting expensive. And for all you guys that eat Subway around the world even a "5$ footlong" meal ends up costing $8.50 out the door, and thats in the states, add a few more bones for other countries. Try and eat overseas for 2 weeks (reasonably healthy food) and get it under the per diem...good luck.
The other day while balancing the books, I pulled some reports on my Quicken and was shocked to see that my expenses have risen 32 percent over the last 2 years. After really looking at it, the new expense is due to higher prices on everything. Grocery visits that used to be 120 are 200. Gas stops that used to be 30 are 55. Cell phone that used to be 80 is 140. I'm not eating more, not driving more and not talking more than I used to.
We live well but pretty conservatively, our mortgage is about 2000 a month, we owe on 2 student loans with low interest rates (damn us for getting a good education), one car (almost payed off) and one credit card. I am telling you that after everybody gets paid there is not much left. I have been an MD11 FO for a little over a year and am making more than I ever have in my life and I am telling you my lifestyle has not improved one bit. On my big check on the 15th, a 5000 dollar paycheck results in a net of 2900 by the time taxes, FICA, healthcare, 401k, and insurance are taken out. And I usually work a little more than the normal 68 hour BLG , at $134 an hour, which sounds amazing to non airline folks. Supposedly I make 9K a month which is more like 5k take home if I'm lucky. And that includes per diem which of course I spent uh....eating of course. So unless you can eat mini snacks around the world you might as well take another couple hundred out of that.
So before I hear from the 20 year widebody Captains with 15 yrs as Captain and a Z06 telling me that I am spending money like a french wh*re..is there anyone in a similar situation?
I always thought I was pretty good at watching the books, but I am starting to get frustrated when there is not money for big items like new tires for the car or a new fridge when the old one breaks, or god forbid a vacation away from home.
Am I the one to find their wallet a bit light?
Laying it out there a bit here boys but spent the whole day passing out my paycheck and a little frustrated....
boost
P.S. I won't even get into how much I lost this week in my 401k!
Last edited by boost; 10-13-2008 at 04:52 PM.
10-13-2008, 05:17 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: On top.
Posts: 167
It is amazing that the euro was about 1.27 2 years ago and not to long ago it was almost 1.58. That is a gain of a little over 24 %, that is what you spend extra when you go to Europe.
Of course you know all about the oil-thingie, so no need to explain that. Just sit back one more year and pay as you have on especially your CC. If you started well in the hole, it is gonna take a little to climb out.
Your 401(k) is doing probably just as bad as mine and many others. Remember that you are buying cheap now, and by the time your retire (if you manage your money correctly) you won't notice a whole lot of what happened these past many months.
Just be patience, that Z06 can wait
Of course you know all about the oil-thingie, so no need to explain that. Just sit back one more year and pay as you have on especially your CC. If you started well in the hole, it is gonna take a little to climb out.
Your 401(k) is doing probably just as bad as mine and many others. Remember that you are buying cheap now, and by the time your retire (if you manage your money correctly) you won't notice a whole lot of what happened these past many months.
Just be patience, that Z06 can wait
10-13-2008, 06:31 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
I'm no financial genius, but I work with a few.
I wouldn't wait for anyone else to make you rich...FedEx, the USAF, your bank or DOD contractor job. Even a good job falls short in times of rising inflation, and there are a lot of challenges in our industry. Add my pet peeve--taxes--and you'll see the more you make the more someone has decided you need to share with all those nice folks who have kids out of wedlock and don't need to work. Yeah...our money pays for hellfire missiles for predators and jet gas for fighters, and gate guards at the National Parks, so it ain't all wasted.. But it does stink watching so much get cut out... Taxes are built to be taken from workers.
Simple keys (and I don't always follow them)...avoid stupid debt. Pay off all credit cards. We spend thousands every year, but we pay them off every month. Controlling costs is a start. Buy two new tires instead of 4. Eat in a bit more. Pass up the new set of duds once in a while. Thrifty gets easier with practice. Some of our captains have morphed it into an art form.
Next--max out the 401k. It forces you to save, and gives you a tax reward for doing so. Between your B plan and 401k you can put 25-30k a year in your retirement. Do that for the next 20 years and you'll see the rewards. I'm not a stock picker....2001 crushed me so I've done mostly bonds and money markets with 35%-40% in stock....which is backwards from what the experts say is right for a 43 year old. But I've slept well the last two months knowing I wasn't getting completely wiped out like I did back in 01.
If we continue to have min BLG lines, you might consider a side job. Its hard to find anything that will pay you what a day's work at the MD11 helm will pay, but that's not why you do it. You do it to diversify your skill set. Real estate agent and mortgage broker jobs were popular in the real estate rush, but both are probably pretty tough now. One good friend builds log houses, another F-15 bubba runs a car lot and a auto garage. Both are doing well even in this slowing economy. If I had a silver bullet of a job, I'd share it, but I don't...except....for DOD guys there are lots of jobs now in UAVs and special ops....both as reservists and contractors doing support jobs. A part time job doing either of those gigs is good job security. A key to success IMHO is use YOUR contacts and someone else's labor, and then manage aggressively. I do this with a stable, but some other (much!) higher margin businesses would be lawn services, aircraft or car dealer services, or (eww) septic services.
This to me is the key...because when you own a business the tax code is built around you. Many of your expenses become legitimate tax deductions. You also get a certain pride in ownership and security in working for yourself that you just cannot get anywhere else. You also learn what an economic cycle is...and sometimes that stinks. That's why keeping a solid airline job with benefits is such a nice compliment to your own business...you get the best of both worlds. Look around FedEx....I've met contractors, barber shop owners, and host of other busienssmen.
Another point is the spouse. No secret that age 65 changes and a softening economy CRUSHED the airline hiring, and thus my interview coaching business in the process. However, the wife put on the superwoman cape and has gone into some business development providing training to local businesses and also overseeing a government grant bring some technical training into local rural schools. The combination of those might not match the drop in our business dollar for dollar, but they came close. Just like in so many other times in my life, I have come to appeciate the value of a solid and loyal (and extremely capable) wingman. Any crisis or financial problem you face is a family problem, and therefore probably requires a family solution. If your spouse wants to stay home--super--but everyone needs to be realistic about the opportunity costs. By the same token, if you have a working spouse your image of 3 squares on the table every day and having a sex kitten lounging around the house while you sleep in on B reserve need to be modified as well. Everything has a price--but the solution will be a joint effort.
Set realistic goals. You've been a WB FO for a year. You don't get rich quick in almost anything.
Finally--don't chase the noise. Don't just chase what you read in Money, saw on CBNC, or heard about in the AOC. I've seen guys move 200k into a position in a stock and make 40-50k in a week. What that person WON'T share is they also lost that much 2 or 3 times recently, too. Look at the big picture when you invest. When we were kids there were 240 million Americans. Today there are well above 300. Our kids will live in a 400 million population. They have to live somewhere, and they'll need food, clothes, and utilities. A fifty acre farm might not "flip" like a Mud Island, Destin, or San Diego condo, but you can grow corn and cattle on it, hunt on the weekends, and cut firewood if you need it. Stocks that pay solid dividends may not make you rich overnight, but if they pay 4-8% a year (or more like some are now) you'll be doing better than if you invested in a CD.
And...no kidding...support your profession. I'd probably work 2 jobs if I got paid a million bucks to only work Tuesdays, but I thrive on challenges. The irony that so many airline pilots NEED a second job, especially at the regional level, is certainly not lost on many of us.
Good luck. Warning: I don't always follow my own advice on spending or investing. I'll be having this talk with myself quite a bit too...
I wouldn't wait for anyone else to make you rich...FedEx, the USAF, your bank or DOD contractor job. Even a good job falls short in times of rising inflation, and there are a lot of challenges in our industry. Add my pet peeve--taxes--and you'll see the more you make the more someone has decided you need to share with all those nice folks who have kids out of wedlock and don't need to work. Yeah...our money pays for hellfire missiles for predators and jet gas for fighters, and gate guards at the National Parks, so it ain't all wasted.. But it does stink watching so much get cut out... Taxes are built to be taken from workers.
Simple keys (and I don't always follow them)...avoid stupid debt. Pay off all credit cards. We spend thousands every year, but we pay them off every month. Controlling costs is a start. Buy two new tires instead of 4. Eat in a bit more. Pass up the new set of duds once in a while. Thrifty gets easier with practice. Some of our captains have morphed it into an art form.
Next--max out the 401k. It forces you to save, and gives you a tax reward for doing so. Between your B plan and 401k you can put 25-30k a year in your retirement. Do that for the next 20 years and you'll see the rewards. I'm not a stock picker....2001 crushed me so I've done mostly bonds and money markets with 35%-40% in stock....which is backwards from what the experts say is right for a 43 year old. But I've slept well the last two months knowing I wasn't getting completely wiped out like I did back in 01.
If we continue to have min BLG lines, you might consider a side job. Its hard to find anything that will pay you what a day's work at the MD11 helm will pay, but that's not why you do it. You do it to diversify your skill set. Real estate agent and mortgage broker jobs were popular in the real estate rush, but both are probably pretty tough now. One good friend builds log houses, another F-15 bubba runs a car lot and a auto garage. Both are doing well even in this slowing economy. If I had a silver bullet of a job, I'd share it, but I don't...except....for DOD guys there are lots of jobs now in UAVs and special ops....both as reservists and contractors doing support jobs. A part time job doing either of those gigs is good job security. A key to success IMHO is use YOUR contacts and someone else's labor, and then manage aggressively. I do this with a stable, but some other (much!) higher margin businesses would be lawn services, aircraft or car dealer services, or (eww) septic services.
This to me is the key...because when you own a business the tax code is built around you. Many of your expenses become legitimate tax deductions. You also get a certain pride in ownership and security in working for yourself that you just cannot get anywhere else. You also learn what an economic cycle is...and sometimes that stinks. That's why keeping a solid airline job with benefits is such a nice compliment to your own business...you get the best of both worlds. Look around FedEx....I've met contractors, barber shop owners, and host of other busienssmen.
Another point is the spouse. No secret that age 65 changes and a softening economy CRUSHED the airline hiring, and thus my interview coaching business in the process. However, the wife put on the superwoman cape and has gone into some business development providing training to local businesses and also overseeing a government grant bring some technical training into local rural schools. The combination of those might not match the drop in our business dollar for dollar, but they came close. Just like in so many other times in my life, I have come to appeciate the value of a solid and loyal (and extremely capable) wingman. Any crisis or financial problem you face is a family problem, and therefore probably requires a family solution. If your spouse wants to stay home--super--but everyone needs to be realistic about the opportunity costs. By the same token, if you have a working spouse your image of 3 squares on the table every day and having a sex kitten lounging around the house while you sleep in on B reserve need to be modified as well. Everything has a price--but the solution will be a joint effort.
Set realistic goals. You've been a WB FO for a year. You don't get rich quick in almost anything.
Finally--don't chase the noise. Don't just chase what you read in Money, saw on CBNC, or heard about in the AOC. I've seen guys move 200k into a position in a stock and make 40-50k in a week. What that person WON'T share is they also lost that much 2 or 3 times recently, too. Look at the big picture when you invest. When we were kids there were 240 million Americans. Today there are well above 300. Our kids will live in a 400 million population. They have to live somewhere, and they'll need food, clothes, and utilities. A fifty acre farm might not "flip" like a Mud Island, Destin, or San Diego condo, but you can grow corn and cattle on it, hunt on the weekends, and cut firewood if you need it. Stocks that pay solid dividends may not make you rich overnight, but if they pay 4-8% a year (or more like some are now) you'll be doing better than if you invested in a CD.
And...no kidding...support your profession. I'd probably work 2 jobs if I got paid a million bucks to only work Tuesdays, but I thrive on challenges. The irony that so many airline pilots NEED a second job, especially at the regional level, is certainly not lost on many of us.
Good luck. Warning: I don't always follow my own advice on spending or investing. I'll be having this talk with myself quite a bit too...
Last edited by Albief15; 10-13-2008 at 06:48 PM.
10-13-2008, 07:04 PM
#6
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: B-744/748 FO
Posts: 96
You've got to be @#$%^&* kidding me, right??
This may very well be one of the most naive posts i've ever read on these forum boards.
Are you too busy checking your 401K balance that you don't realize what everyone else in this industry/country is going through?? First of all, people that stress out about the price of a barrel of oil and their 401K values need to relax a bit! Oil has dipped back down to around $90 a barrel, and the Dow Jones had a 936 point gain today (near a record!) - these are both long term subjects, not something to check 50 times a day and take too much tums over!
Almost anyone in this country would LOVE to be in your position - and work for a company that offers such great job security. So many of us who have worked so hard in our lives and careers are seeing everything go up in smoke.
After working my way up to captain at an airline for 10 years - and a descent salary, they went under. (Right after my wife and I started our family with a new daughter). Then, after being away for 8 weeks of training for a new airline, I lost my next job only months later when that airline went under. Luckily, unlike many of the pilots on this website (nevermind - you must not read any other forum categories besides FedEx) - I found yet another flying job - but could be laid off at any moment (like almost EVERYONE in this industry). But you know what??- I am extremely appreciative to have the job I now have - as bad as it may be. By the way, my career goal is to fly for fed-ex or ups. I cannot imagine hearing those great words and knowing I'd be able to provide security and a comfortable lifestyle for my family for the rest of our lives!!
My wife, a school teacher (bless ALL their hearts), took a 2 year leave of absence when our daughter was born - 2 months before I lost my job of 10 years. We went from triple digits down to a take home of around 30 per year. But you know what?? Just like everyone in america we're making changes and tightening things up and making it work!
You have the LARGE luxury of having job security - and knowing you'll make millions in your career and be financially set in the long run. Everything is relative. Maybe you should check your priorities in life - money seems to be higher on your list than it should be! Other people are in complete survival mode - and staring even more economic hardships in the face; being forced to pack up and leave their homes and having trouble putting food on the table. I truly don't understand how so many in this industry have survived to this point; let alone getting through these times!!
PLEASE don't whine about these subjects here on APC; it shows disrespect to so many of the other pilots here. Surely you have a "*****-board" there at Fed-Ex for your pilots only who may sympathize with you.
Thank you.
This may very well be one of the most naive posts i've ever read on these forum boards.
Are you too busy checking your 401K balance that you don't realize what everyone else in this industry/country is going through?? First of all, people that stress out about the price of a barrel of oil and their 401K values need to relax a bit! Oil has dipped back down to around $90 a barrel, and the Dow Jones had a 936 point gain today (near a record!) - these are both long term subjects, not something to check 50 times a day and take too much tums over!
Almost anyone in this country would LOVE to be in your position - and work for a company that offers such great job security. So many of us who have worked so hard in our lives and careers are seeing everything go up in smoke.
After working my way up to captain at an airline for 10 years - and a descent salary, they went under. (Right after my wife and I started our family with a new daughter). Then, after being away for 8 weeks of training for a new airline, I lost my next job only months later when that airline went under. Luckily, unlike many of the pilots on this website (nevermind - you must not read any other forum categories besides FedEx) - I found yet another flying job - but could be laid off at any moment (like almost EVERYONE in this industry). But you know what??- I am extremely appreciative to have the job I now have - as bad as it may be. By the way, my career goal is to fly for fed-ex or ups. I cannot imagine hearing those great words and knowing I'd be able to provide security and a comfortable lifestyle for my family for the rest of our lives!!
My wife, a school teacher (bless ALL their hearts), took a 2 year leave of absence when our daughter was born - 2 months before I lost my job of 10 years. We went from triple digits down to a take home of around 30 per year. But you know what?? Just like everyone in america we're making changes and tightening things up and making it work!
You have the LARGE luxury of having job security - and knowing you'll make millions in your career and be financially set in the long run. Everything is relative. Maybe you should check your priorities in life - money seems to be higher on your list than it should be! Other people are in complete survival mode - and staring even more economic hardships in the face; being forced to pack up and leave their homes and having trouble putting food on the table. I truly don't understand how so many in this industry have survived to this point; let alone getting through these times!!
PLEASE don't whine about these subjects here on APC; it shows disrespect to so many of the other pilots here. Surely you have a "*****-board" there at Fed-Ex for your pilots only who may sympathize with you.
Thank you.
10-13-2008, 07:43 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 156
Thats my point flyboy, supposed to have made it but just don't feel like it. Just pointing out how much is costs to live these days and how little the dollar will get you. Obviously financial stuff is a touchy subject, and you have some good points and I feel for your situation.
By the way, did the corporate thing, the regional thing and been through 2 BKs at airlines myself, one of which while my wife lost her job. I didn't just wake up and start working at this place you know. That's kind of my point, I just thought that after this long of doing this and working as hard as I have to get here that I still wouldn't be struggling. I think your response was a little over the top but what was I thinking sharing some thoughts on a public forum?? Just trying to generate discussion not start a p1ssing contest. Keep it positive man we're all in this together.
Thanks Albie for the well thought out response, all good things to consider.
By the way, did the corporate thing, the regional thing and been through 2 BKs at airlines myself, one of which while my wife lost her job. I didn't just wake up and start working at this place you know. That's kind of my point, I just thought that after this long of doing this and working as hard as I have to get here that I still wouldn't be struggling. I think your response was a little over the top but what was I thinking sharing some thoughts on a public forum??
Just trying to generate discussion not start a p1ssing contest. Keep it positive man we're all in this together. Thanks Albie for the well thought out response, all good things to consider.
Last edited by boost; 10-13-2008 at 08:33 PM.
10-13-2008, 08:28 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,109
Yeah I'm definitely feeling it everywhere these days. I too will make more this year than I ever had in my life but it definitely doesn't seem to go that far. I can guarantee that my family income is less than most of the other families on my block and none are pilots. That being said I still manage to live a pretty good wife. I have wife who makes $30k/yr in her part time job and we have a $4000 mortgage and 2 kids and still seem to manage to max out the 401K and live pretty well.
If I look out a little bit more than my block I find that our pay is still really good - albeit nowhere near as good as it was 10 years ago in the industry (before the 2000 ridiculous pay rates of Delta and UAL). I had the privilege of jumpseating home yesterday in the cockpit of a US Airways (West) A320. With 4 hours of block we talked about a lot of stuff. The 20year Captain who also lives in the same town I do and has a family, makes about $140/hour. And he wasn't complaining about the pay. Puts things in perspective.
If I look out a little bit more than my block I find that our pay is still really good - albeit nowhere near as good as it was 10 years ago in the industry (before the 2000 ridiculous pay rates of Delta and UAL). I had the privilege of jumpseating home yesterday in the cockpit of a US Airways (West) A320. With 4 hours of block we talked about a lot of stuff. The 20year Captain who also lives in the same town I do and has a family, makes about $140/hour. And he wasn't complaining about the pay. Puts things in perspective.
10-13-2008, 08:34 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 204
Sorry to not be too sympathetic, but YGTBSM. Buddy, I hope you aren't in a WB Captain house and have too many toys. If international flying is too expensive, then fly the domestic stuff. If you are senior enough to fly international, you should be able to write your ticket flying domestic.
As a wide body FO, you're probably making more than I was making as a reserve 727 Captain 5 years ago. Suck it up. It aint going to get any better. Anywhere. Not that it couldn't/shouldn't be better, but life aint fair, and for the moment, you are in a good place. Way better (thanks to ALPA) than when I go hired years ago. Wish I could sympathize, but live frugally, make your kids smart, and push them to get college scholarships like most of us had to get to make it through college.
Save as much money in your 401K. Don't be like some idiot WB Captains I know who live paycheck to paycheck. Otherwise, you'll just be playing into managements hands during the next round of contract negotiations.
Live well, but be realistic. I'll buy the beer.
As a wide body FO, you're probably making more than I was making as a reserve 727 Captain 5 years ago. Suck it up. It aint going to get any better. Anywhere. Not that it couldn't/shouldn't be better, but life aint fair, and for the moment, you are in a good place. Way better (thanks to ALPA) than when I go hired years ago. Wish I could sympathize, but live frugally, make your kids smart, and push them to get college scholarships like most of us had to get to make it through college.
Save as much money in your 401K. Don't be like some idiot WB Captains I know who live paycheck to paycheck. Otherwise, you'll just be playing into managements hands during the next round of contract negotiations.
Live well, but be realistic. I'll buy the beer.
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