Why UPS needs a new contract...
 

And also why the FO pay slope needs to be fixed.

“Don’t worry about second or third year pay. You chose UPS for the Captain pay.” This is one of several unbelievably stupid things I have heard. Others have been, “this contract is about righting past wrongs and making UPS own up to their promises from 1988” and “we better not reject a TA because then the mediator and NMB may force a worse deal on us or leave us in indefinite recess.”

I’d like to address these three points. In the table below, I have displayed the time value of money as applied to the first 10 years FO pay at UPS and FedEx. Keep in mind that at FedEx the upgrade time is about 5 years and they have a wide and narrow body scale. I have done the comparison with their wide-body scale since we are primarily a wide-body airline. (The DC-8 may not technically be a wide-body, but it carries a helluva lot and we only have 17 or so 727s, which will be long gone by the next contract anyway.)


The first column is the year of service.
The second column is UPS yearly income.
The third column is FedEx yearly income.
The fouth coulmn is UPS income from respective year in the year 2026 at 3% annual interest.
The fifth column us FedEx income from resepective year in the year 2026 at 3% annual interest.
Year 1 . 26,000 50,700 47,000 92,000
Year 2 . 74,100 114,075 130,000 200,000
Year 3 . 79,950 114,075 136,000 194,000
Year 4 . 89,700 117,000 148,000 193,000
Year 5 . 94,575 118,950 152,000 191,000
Year 6 . 99,450 121,875 155,000 190,000
Year 7 . 104,325 123,825 157,000 188,000
Year 8 . 109,200 126,750 160,000 187,000
Year 9 . 115,050 128,700 164,000 184,000
Year 10 . 119,925 132,600 166,000 184,000
$1,415,000 $1,803,000

Second, this contract is about the future, not the past. I appreciate the sacrifices that the 88ers made for our union. They deserve all the respect and thanks in the world. But this contract will not pass if it bloats the A plan at the expense of FO compensation. It’s not fair, equitable, and feasible given the pension crunch going on in America today. UPS should not have to expend those kinds of retirement incomes. The managers get that kind of pension but that is beside the point.

I often hear IPAers blast FedEx by saying that their scope clause is weak and their jobs are at risk. Why is it then that upgrade at FedEx is twice as fast as it is here? When reviewing the above numbers keep in mind that the FedEx guys will be at the captain scale at year 5.

If our TA comes back and it is less than the current FedEx contract every single FO should vote no. There are many aspects to a contract but bottom line is that we get 975 hours pay per year minimum and FedEx guys average between 950 and 1000. Why the hell should we get less than our peers at FedEx? What is a great A plan worth if you earn millions of dollars less over your career? Especially since the chances of it still being there in 20 years is nill. And on a final note, the military has unmanned aerial vehicles launching hellfire missiles over Afghanistan right now. How long before technology produces an unmanned A380 cargo aircraft? I predict 20 years, which means we need to secure our futures with a FedEx type contract now!!!

Who the heck said "don't worry about FO pay"? Are they crazy? I would think it would be a captain that said this.

My opinion is that the eventual TA we recieve will be turned down. Because, just like in 1997, the young will be fed to the lions. This Contract is for the top 30% at the expense of the lower 70%. Lets pray were smart enough to read it, look at Art.13, and shove it back up their butts. I for one am sick of forced overtime and sleeping on floors. And Jim and Cindy were not the ones we should rely on to fix it. Tom's First major mistake. And now it's up to us. Unless you want to die at 62.

first year UPS pay
 

I recently talked to a UPS Captain about the the horrible pay rate for new hires at UPS. He said that their pilot group negotiates only for second year pay and up because new hires are not represented by the union nor do they generate dues for the union.

He felt that first year pay was the responsibility of the company and it was up to management to either raise first year rates to attract quality pilots, or leave the rates low and take their chances.

An interesting perspective, but it seems to me that once these new hire pilots start paying dues their second year, they will have by then developed a poor view of their union and fellow pilots.

A weak start to the union's relationship with their new members.

I also feel that first year pay is the responsibility of UPS mgt. I guess I thought poorly of UPS mgt for the low pay and not the line pilots. As for the slope yes it would be nice if it was fixed. However has not every line guy lived through the same thing?

I would beg to differ that UPS is indeed attracting "quality pilots". Also, new hires do pay union dues, but are not represented by the IPA.

Eating crap is not something that should continue just because someone did it before. There is a significant problem when FedEx pays a 2d year pilot $41,000 more than a UPS pilot flying the exact same airplane!!!! (A300)

I second what Lil J said. That is bull. If you have this attitude things will never change with anything. Just because you dealt with it, doesn't mean every poor schmuck behind you should. Talk about a selfish attitude. I am off first year pay in a little over a month and I still think 1st year pay needs to go up. I had to work 2 jobs this past year just to get by. Why would I want someone else to go through that?

We do??????

Me thinks L'il J is talking about the initiation fee we paid when we first came on.

Aaaaah, I see......had me confused there....but then again I've been up all night and therefore easily confused. :)

Why only match FedEx? We're far more profitable a company; we should be negotiating pay that is 15 to 20% above the FedEx pay rate sheet.

I think our negotiators will send us a POS T/A that we'll have to stamp "no" to.

Yeah, I meant initiation fees regarding union dues.

15-20% more than FedEx for FO would be pushing it. But I agree if FO pay is below the FedEX widebody scale, I'll be voting no. More and more newhires are getting off probation and it is changing the dynamics of the pilot group. Call me a dreamer, but I think a TA will come next month and it will be one that we all will be somehat happy with.

See that's the thing that makes me mad. Evidently a contract was almost done in Dec but the company backed off from the FO pay rates. Now the senior negotiating dudes are ready to sacrifice FO pay in order to get a beefed up A plan in order for the contract to be finalized. They expect us to strike for their retirement pensions but will sell our pay rates down the river to get it done. They''ll have you believe it's complicated and that you can't look at your potential current pay rates when judging the TA. They want you to see the capt pay scales. FedEx gets 117 the second year, why can't we?

Also, with the age 65 rule coming, it will mean an even longer time to upgrade. That's why FO pay rates need to be better than FedEx's not worse. We will spend so much longer in the right seat than our FedEx peers. It's almost forbidden to talk about the FOs being screwed so the old guys get a pension. You can read all the guys on the B&G blast FO concerns all the time. A great contract is worth waiting for and I encourage everyone to vote no on any TA that has FO pay beneath FedEx's widebody scale!

Yes it is true I had to deal with it. My intent of the statement was not that everyone should because we had too. I was trying to state that we ALL got to enjoy first year pay and I don't blame my fellow line pilots for it. I too think first year pay should go up. I also dont want someone else to go through what you did during your first year. I however question if UPS thinks the same way we do on this issue.

That's not true. 26k this year is significantly less than 26k five years ago. Due to inflation the equivalent salary in 2001 compared to $26,000 today is only $22,000! $26,000 in 1995 is equal to $36,000 today. Any way you look at it first year pay sucks now, it sucked in the past, and it will suck in the future. The point is that we should not be paid less than our peers just to avoid a strike so the older guys can retire.

I didn't mean it should or would continue. I was trying to state that it is nothing new and most at UPS have had to deal with it.

The list of things that FedEx has better then UPS is long indeed. I am partially to blame for this as I voted for the contract in 92 and being sort of new at the time had no idea about the slope issue. I've paid the price and hopefully you through luck of timing and being more aware will not have too.

If we get a TA that contains huge pension gains at the expense of FO pay scales, scheduling, scope, etc., it will get voted down. Pilot demographics will take care of that.

Your point is taken. Actually it is worse then your example. My first year pay was somewhere like 29k which would be much more in todays dollar. I'm sure this and time have effected my views.

I agree that you should not be paid less then your peers. Lets hope if/when we get a TA it will be fair to all and treat all of us equally.

I'm with you bro. My thing is.......we should be fighting for all of it....retirement, FO pay increase, etc. My thing is by the time I (and many of my peers) get to retirement age, we will have been through a few contracts. By then we will be probably saying Plan what? I don't think the A Plan will be there for a lot of us and in the meantime we sacrificed FO pay for it.....I DON'T THINK SO! I will be voting NO....I don't care what the senior guys tell me.

UPS Contract
 

There are just so many $$$$ in the pot. The IPA can divide it any way it wants to. In the end, the captains will benefit the most; they always do.

So many $$ in the pot?? Not true in this case. There are enough dollars to rectify this contract and make it appropriate. It's not like we are asking for a Delta/United pre-9/11 contract. Just make us on par with FedEx, who by the way are about to get an even better contract as well.

No they do not pay union due until their second year.

BrownBusDriver

Wishful Thinking. But I can already tell all you care about, or at least talk about, is money. I, and many others will be voting NO because of Art. 13. Deadheading up to 18 hours. Sleeping on Floors. Very few Commercials. Forced Overtime. If this comes out, they can shove it up their ass. Screw the money, the wife going to take half, since your never home. And then you'll die at 61. No way.

You are so wrong. I have been told, face to face, that we are asking for a pre-911 contract. This from Tom and Jim at different times. What I'm really afraid of is a "Cost Nuetral" contract. This is what is happening. Whatever pay raise we get, the company will get it back in spades with our Scheduling article. Read Article 13!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you guys should go for UAL +1%.





Easy guys, just kidding.....

UPS is going to raise their 1st year pay when they have to, and right now, with the carnage going on in the industry, they dont have to.
No one on the property is going to negotiate away one thing to fix the first year pay either, no matter how much they might say otherwise.

Folks hire on knowing what they are getting into, I'm not saying it shouldn't
be better, and having recently endured it, I know, but if you are going to concentrate your angst, it should be on scope, scope, and scope. No one is going to vote NO if the only thing they don't like in the TA is low 1st year pay, period.

ISFS, TB

Get your ass back in the NASC
 

Managers (you) should just just shut up and color. Go give Barr a reach-around and leave this forum to the real pilots

Stuff
 

In the 767, you CAN sleep on the floor if you use the catering box, ball up your overcoat and jacket and use them as a pillow...in front of the galley. ANYTHING is possible.

I heard that some doing the negotiations want to sacrifice scheduling rules for retirement???? Screw that!

Really? Say it ain't so. This isn't 1997. People will read this contract.

How about this.... I was advocating raising the first year pay. It is a negotiated element. Period. Not to mention that I wouldn't feel very loyal to a union that let me twist in the wind, financially, the first year. It simply is the right thing to do. Anyway, right from TN's lips, he wants to raise the retirement benefit of those who have already retired. Not the over 60 folks working in the back seat, but people who retired and are no longer on the payrol(and no longer paying union dues). I realize they definitely got a crappy A plan ,BUT, what are you willing to give up to give these non-dues paying guys a better quality of life? I'd be willing to consider it, but it would be pretty freakin' low on my wishlist.

For your consideration...


PS: Why does it label me as a "New Hire" Under what menu can I change that? TIA

It is based on your number of posts. You'll be a lineholder when you get to 25 posts. You'll get weekends off when you get to 100 posts.

Just to clear up "who you are", why don't you tell us how long you have been here.

BrownBusDriver

Where? In the seat I'm sitting in? 3 mins. On this forum? one day. At UPS 12 years. How 'bout answering the question, please.

got it, thanks

Un-Freaking-Believable!!!!!! From a reliable source I have learned that the IPA EB is negotiating to increase the A-plan. That seems to be expected. But they are also trying to get the pensions for the guys who have already retired increased!!!! Many IPAers are supporting it by saying "We should expect nothing less than both." (referring to pay raised for line pilots and retired folks)

Is there anyone on here that supports this? How can you negotiate better pensions for already retired folks over correcting the FO slope!!! UPS FOs are making 43,000 a year LESS than their FedEx counterparts and our EB is discussing retiree pay. What a crock.

I tried to warn you about staying. You should have taken that class date at FredEX. Oh well you can always cry over spilled milk.

Cheers,
CW

Anyone who has watched the last decade unfold and still believes in A plans is a fool. This is not just in the airlines, but in other industries as well-Ford and GM may ring a bell. Your choice is to accept an unsecured promise to pay in the future or money in your account now, this shouldn't even be a question for anyone here.
If the EB and UPS can try to negotiate A plan payments up, isn't it also likely they may try to negotiate them down at some point in the future?

CW,

Perhaps you should fill out a Fredex application, man your attitude sucks.