Why Pablo?
01-07-2009 | 03:43 AM
#31
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Joined: Jun 2006
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I used to work for ASA. Back in the nineties, the best qualification for getting in the training department there was a lack of a union card. Second best was a decidedly anti-union attitude. There were a few exceptions, but if you didn't join the union you went to the front of the line.
As you can imagine, checkrides were nightmares if you were known as a troublemaker. Our MEC chair was busted the first time he tried to upgrade. I wasn't in his class but I had enough friends who were to know he got screwed.
So now here we are at Fedex. Guys go into management, guys come out. Guys go into ALPA work and guys come out. Lo and behold, many times it's the same people. Having seen the opposite, I'm quite pleased with that, in general. I think most pilots are quite capable of remembering who is buttering their bread at any one time.
The 777 program was launched several years ago. We've had guys going to the sim up at Boeing since the summer if not before. These guys then came back to MEM, started writing manuals and checklists, setting up the computer training, and getting the simulators ready. They knew they would need more help so they started talking to the best guys they could think of to come over and join them. Pablo was one.
You guys honestly want to tell me that ALPA members should not have been involved in any of that prep work? That Pablo should have said, "Well, I may or may not be running for a rep spot, and we may or may not have a pay rate by the time we run a bid, so I'll just say no."
And ask yourself, whom would we have gotten in 777 training and standards then? I'll give you a hint - they'd look alot like the idiots I flew with at ASA. Go over to Flightinfo and run a search on Brian Wilson.
As you can imagine, checkrides were nightmares if you were known as a troublemaker. Our MEC chair was busted the first time he tried to upgrade. I wasn't in his class but I had enough friends who were to know he got screwed.
So now here we are at Fedex. Guys go into management, guys come out. Guys go into ALPA work and guys come out. Lo and behold, many times it's the same people. Having seen the opposite, I'm quite pleased with that, in general. I think most pilots are quite capable of remembering who is buttering their bread at any one time.
The 777 program was launched several years ago. We've had guys going to the sim up at Boeing since the summer if not before. These guys then came back to MEM, started writing manuals and checklists, setting up the computer training, and getting the simulators ready. They knew they would need more help so they started talking to the best guys they could think of to come over and join them. Pablo was one.
You guys honestly want to tell me that ALPA members should not have been involved in any of that prep work? That Pablo should have said, "Well, I may or may not be running for a rep spot, and we may or may not have a pay rate by the time we run a bid, so I'll just say no."
And ask yourself, whom would we have gotten in 777 training and standards then? I'll give you a hint - they'd look alot like the idiots I flew with at ASA. Go over to Flightinfo and run a search on Brian Wilson.
01-07-2009 | 03:55 AM
#32
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Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Retired
That is soooooo cool.Seriously, good post Huck.
JJ
01-07-2009 | 04:20 AM
#33
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Joined: Jul 2007
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From: 1 on big twin
If the bottom 250 guys were junior manned into the 777 on this bid...I guess we wouldn't have to worry about a furlough, eh?
Not that I'm worried about it, anyway.
------------------------------------
Originally Posted by PastV1 View Post
If no one bid the 777 and the company junior manned the entire A/C with the bottom 250 guys on the list we would not be over manned as most of you would have a Stroke right on the spot. You'd cry foul for the next 20 years because some junior guy got junior manned to the left seat of the 777 and stayed there until he retired!
We have no way of NOT flying an A/C, no matter what the pay rate status is. There are comparisons to other airlines but our contract allows the company to fill any primary vacancy by junior manning or hiring off the street... CBA 24.C.3.b
If you want to through spears at guys that bid the 777 at least have a credible argument as to how you would address the situation.
Not that I'm worried about it, anyway.
------------------------------------
Originally Posted by PastV1 View Post
If no one bid the 777 and the company junior manned the entire A/C with the bottom 250 guys on the list we would not be over manned as most of you would have a Stroke right on the spot. You'd cry foul for the next 20 years because some junior guy got junior manned to the left seat of the 777 and stayed there until he retired!
We have no way of NOT flying an A/C, no matter what the pay rate status is. There are comparisons to other airlines but our contract allows the company to fill any primary vacancy by junior manning or hiring off the street... CBA 24.C.3.b
If you want to through spears at guys that bid the 777 at least have a credible argument as to how you would address the situation.
Do any of you really think that if we had the umm.. "GUTS" to not bid the airplane that the company would let THAT bid go through? With the Bottom 250 flying that airplane?... Really?
No .. if we had the "GUTS".. that bid would have been cancelled.. and we would have gotten a lot further in this negotiation for the proper payrate for the 777.
JP
Last edited by Jumbo Pilot; 01-07-2009 at 04:21 AM. Reason: had to add another post for the reply
01-07-2009 | 04:46 AM
#34
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Joined: Sep 2006
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From: MD11 Captain
I think one of the problems here is that people "Assume" that not bidding the 777 will leave it unfilled and the company will be unable to fly. Also is that people may be "reading" into what the union messages are... i.e. What the Union is "insinuating". The Union leadership knows full well that the company can fly the jet whether we bid it or not. So trying to have people not bid the A/C really doesn't do much good nor does it help the over-manning issue.
I believe Pablo has taken several shots across the bow and was just letting people in on his thoughts.
Two issues are in play here. One is the over manning and the other is the 777 pay rates. The over manning is a very emotional one and seems to be bleeding over into the 777 issue. The over manning issue is being treated as a big 'Grey" area in the contract by the company. Conversely, the 777 pay rate issue is fairly well defined and is following the process. Remember, our leverage there is the work rules.
When we fight amongst ourselves for no reason and "Demonize" others because their actions don't fit into our "Sphere" of reason it just makes the company that much stronger in their resolve to force something else down our throats......
I believe Pablo has taken several shots across the bow and was just letting people in on his thoughts.
Two issues are in play here. One is the over manning and the other is the 777 pay rates. The over manning is a very emotional one and seems to be bleeding over into the 777 issue. The over manning issue is being treated as a big 'Grey" area in the contract by the company. Conversely, the 777 pay rate issue is fairly well defined and is following the process. Remember, our leverage there is the work rules.
When we fight amongst ourselves for no reason and "Demonize" others because their actions don't fit into our "Sphere" of reason it just makes the company that much stronger in their resolve to force something else down our throats......
01-07-2009 | 04:51 AM
#35
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Spot on Huck. But you don't have to go to ASA or anywhere outside the company to find an anti-union schoolhouse - it was that way here too. Many of us were blackballed for our early support of alpa. You had to be a no-guy to be in training or standards - it also helped to go to the right church, be on the right bbq team, and even help the manager by selling magnets for his side business. In the end, we overcame by showing responsible union members could also be responsible instructors, check airmen, and members of mgmt (even VP's)...
A current member of the MEC gets selected to be on the initial cadre of the 777. Cheers Pablo, we won!
A current member of the MEC gets selected to be on the initial cadre of the 777. Cheers Pablo, we won!
01-07-2009 | 05:47 AM
#39
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Joined: Jul 2006
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From: B-777
If no one bid the 777 and the company junior manned the entire A/C with the bottom 250 guys on the list we would not be over manned as most of you would have a Stroke right on the spot. You'd cry foul for the next 20 years because some junior guy got junior manned to the left seat of the 777 and stayed there until he retired!
We have no way of NOT flying an A/C, no matter what the pay rate status is. There are comparisons to other airlines but our contract allows the company to fill any primary vacancy by junior manning or hiring off the street... CBA 24.C.3.b
If you want to through spears at guys that bid the 777 at least have a credible argument as to how you would address the situation.
We have no way of NOT flying an A/C, no matter what the pay rate status is. There are comparisons to other airlines but our contract allows the company to fill any primary vacancy by junior manning or hiring off the street... CBA 24.C.3.b
If you want to through spears at guys that bid the 777 at least have a credible argument as to how you would address the situation.
01-07-2009 | 05:53 AM
#40
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Joined: Apr 2006
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From: MD-11 Captain
The BC negotiating committee "traded" A380 pay for 757 narrow body pay.
Almost immediately after the CBA was signed, the company announced that we'd be receiving 87 757's (it was aparantly a relatively big industry secret as my Boeing mod team buds hasn't heard a word about it. They were surprised ANYBODY could buy that many Boeings and they not know about it?).
Also almost immediately after the CBA was signed the company announced the cancellation of the A380 order (not a huge surprise as it was WAY behind schedule).
Gents ... I'd say we got hood-winked on that deal.
Mark
