UPS- Dest Alt for ANC

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01-22-2009, 01:47 PM

GOCKY

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UPS- Dest Alt for ANC

Options are even more limited now for destination alternates for ANC. Effective Jan 12, King Salmon is no longer authorized as a destination alternate.
So if you're operating a 3 or 4 engine aircraft to ANC the only legal authorized alternates you have in the state of Alaska now are EDF, FAI, EIL, and sometimes CDB (not available as destination alternate during curfew).
This last week payloads have been back to normal coming out of Asia. Of course now that we will possibly be carrying SEA as an alternate, that doesn't do us a lot of good.
Anyone ever landed in YXY? (Whitehorse)

01-22-2009, 01:58 PM

El Guapo

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How come you guys can't use King Salmon?

01-22-2009, 02:35 PM

FR8Hauler

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Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo

How come you guys can't use King Salmon?

Why do you think? Probably someone in other than a Beech 1900 tried to divert there one time.

01-22-2009, 03:43 PM

UPSDISPATCHER

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We can't use it this week, sort of. In the event PAED, PAFA, PAEI, and PACD go below alt mins you can bet your ass we'll be directed to use it immediately after the first eastbound plane is turned back to Asia, or better yet dropped into PASY, instead of changing the alternate to something legal and continuing on to the cat3 destination. It is staying in C70 for this very reason. If they were serious about it and not just appeasing the ANC CP, PAKN would be removed from the OPSPECS.

121.631b - No person may allow a flight to continue to an airport to which it has been dispatched or released unless the weather conditions at an alternate airport that was specified in the dispatch or flight release are forecast to be at or above the alternate minimums specified in the operations specifications for that airport at the time the aircraft would arrive at the alternate airport. However, the dispatch or flight release may be amended en route to include any alternate airport that is within the fuel range of the aircraft as specified in §§121.639 through 121.647.

01-22-2009, 04:21 PM

MaydayMark

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Position: MD-11 Captain

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I had it as both my ALT and my T/O ALT (different flights obviously, PAFA was CAT III) 2 weeks ago? What do you guys know that we don't?

Mark

01-22-2009, 05:05 PM

Sideshow Bob

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Position: MD11 CPT

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GOCKY

Another problem with AKN is that, while it may well be "legal" to use as an alternate as far as FAR's are concerned, if the wind is blowing over 10 knots from the south, you're asking for a fecal storm as you're now committed to landing Rwy 12 (due to the 10 knot tailwind limitation) but you can't turn around once you get to the end (since it's only 100 feet wide). While at some weights with heavy braking/flaps 50 on the Turtle you might be able to turn right 2/3 down there are no guarantees. So I suppose one would have to tell them to have a tug standing by to push you back so you don't close the runway for too long, since you're likely not the only one landing there in that scenario.

Last edited by Sideshow Bob; 01-23-2009 at 07:10 AM.

01-22-2009, 06:58 PM

SKYKN6

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Position: B777 Capt(retired)

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AKN alternate

King Salmon works fine as an alternate. Been there, max landing weight landing RWY12. Enough turn around room at the south end for MD11. Parking on the SE ramp (watch the light poles at the edge). The airport manager will loan you chocks!

Full fire fighting equipment(old USAF alert station). No customs but OK if coming up from lower 48. Hotel OK, one horse town in winter....

01-22-2009, 07:38 PM

FLMD11CAPT

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Position: MD-11, F/O

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYKN6

Full fire fighting equipment(old USAF alert station). No customs but OK if coming up from lower 48. Hotel OK, one horse town in winter....

So........if it's wxoff in ANC,FAI etc. how does one get off the A/C and go to the hotel w/no customs after inbound from asia?

01-22-2009, 07:39 PM

fr8rcaptain

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Position: Retired UPS 767 Captain, SDF Z

Posts: 431

It's all in the OPS Specs

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOCKY

I was asked this question twice during my last trip. If in doubt, the Captain should ask the dispatcher about the suitability of a dispatch alternate.

WARNING: the following only applies to UPS operations

UPS Ops Spec C 70 states (emphasis mine):

C070. Airports Authorized for Scheduled Operations

a. The certificate holder is authorized to conduct scheduled passenger and cargo operations between the regular, refueling, and provisional airports specified in the following table. Except for alternate airports, the certificate holder shall not use any other airport in the conduct of scheduled passenger and cargo operations. The certificate holder shall maintain a list of alternate airports which can be used and shall not use any alternate airport unless it is suitable for the type of aircraft being used and the kind of operation being conducted.

Now, don't look at C.70.c. for the approved weather alternates. This table only lists approved regular, refueling and provisional destinations. For weather alternates, you have to consult the OPS Specs Appendix, first section. Here, there are 9 airports listed as approved weather and emergency alternates in the great state of AK (besides ANC of course).

However (and there's always a "however" for UPS), for the MD 11, the brick does not contain any useable approaches to King Salmon (we cant shoot a back course localizer), so copies of the RNAV/GPS approaches must be included in your dispatch paperwork.

01-22-2009, 10:06 PM

#10

Deespatcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob

Another problem with AKN is that, while it may well be "legal" to use as an alternate as far as FAR's are concerned, if the wind is blowing over 10 knots from the south, you're asking for a fecal storm as you're now committed to landing Rwy 18 (due to the 10 knot tailwind limitation) but you can't turn around once you get to the end (since it's only 100 feet wide). While at some weights with heavy braking/flaps 50 on the Turtle you might be able to turn right 2/3 down there are no guarantees. So I suppose one would have to tell them to have a tug standing by to push you back so you don't close the runway for too long, since you're likely not the only one landing there in that scenario.

I would love to meet the man or woman with the testicular fortitude to land an MD-11 or B744 on the 4018' of runway 18/36. I'll buy!

Now the other runway (12/30)is usable, and with a Boeing listed turn radius of 42.8m for a B744 and 41m for an MD-11, should be able to turn around down at P and back taxi (probably should have wingwalkers). Granted if you have a fleet of widebodies coming in, you got some big issues with space.

I've used PAKN and PACD as dest altn before, even during curfew (since according to PAZA, all you gotta do is call center and they'll have an on call airport operator onsite "quickly", same as an ETOPS diversion). I've also dispatched MD's to some real garden spots that make either of these airports look like VHHH by comparison.