No Negotiations at UPS
 

According to the Chief Pilot, neither UPS or the IPA are or have been in negotiations for the last few weeks-they have just discussed issues. See latest message from Chief Pilot.
Should this info be filed under doubletalk and bafflement or just put in the file for curious messages from those who should be negotiating?

Actually it's true tom and tony have been talking back and forth. Actually tom is caving in to tony to try and get a ta before he's removed from office.

What is the web address for the Petition?

Actually Browntail that's the first thing you have ever said that is true. The "new lowered TA" is DOA like I said earlier. If Tom was Smart, he would raise the TA reguirements. I love to see all 11 crews per MD11, Contract 2008!!! Teamsters, MX. This is getting good.

Browntail is right. Tom has zero credibility in front of UPS right now, and all of us are suffering because of it.

I think it's time to start a legal action to force both parties to move forward on negotiations. There has been enough stalling and zero action from either side. The idea that three years is required to hammer out a few simple modifications to an existing contract is just wrong. In the meantime we lose every day that goes by without any reasonable offer from management.

Legal action? no basis for such a lawsuit action. UPS is acting I feel not in its best interests but not illegally. Sue the union? now there is a way to help our position ....not.

Labor and mgt are unable to come to an agreement....... release them into a 30 day cooling off period. Then allow both parties to follow whatever legal avenues are left.

Not being an attorney, I can't say whether there is a legal basis for action or not, but as a member of the Union I think we should start exploring that avenue with an eye to both the Labor board and the Company. Sue the Union? Why would you even think of doing that? We have the means to change the Union by the members acting in accordance with the bylaws.

Without an external force acting on the Company it is a fact proven over time that they will stonewall any effort at negotiations. That external force can come from the Labor board(with proper legal motivation), other components of company labor, legal action against the company(once an effort is made to develop a legal strategy), or economic concerns(IRO, crew productivity, scope, etc.).
The current course of action is NOT working, it's time for a new strategy. I would rather my dues be spent on an exploration and implementation of possible legal action instead of another collection of useless pins and lanyards.

negotiations
 

Jungle...

What legal action do you propose? Just sit back and be patient and things will come to a close. Last contract (98) was settled only a bit earlier than now from the amendable date. The best way to gain the contract we deserve is not to sit and gripe about how long it takes, but to make sure to use your sick time when needed, decline ja and don't pick up ot to help the company. No wavers, no favors and be sure to enjoy the time at home with your family.

Make sure your approaches are all stabilized and if you're a left seater, taxi at a safe speed. Take off into the wind (thats what the birds do btw) even if it means taxiing to the other end of the airport. Land into the wind even if it means you have to circle around to the other end of the field. There are many ways to fly the contract and have an effect on daily operations. Unfortunately, many people just like to ***** and moan instead of taking any personal responsibility.

JMO

Pilot7576

If you think sending a mandate to the Union to explore other stategies is bitching and moaning that is fine, but I am interested in getting results through direct action rather than sitting back and waiting for things to happen.
Progress has not happened by any meaningful measure and I am not satisfied that we are looking at all possible means to improve our position.
It is a given that we should all do our part as individuals, and it should be a given that we demand our money's worth from those we have chosen to lead us in negotiations. We aren't currently getting good value for the dollars we are spending.

Let's let the EB know they must either get things moving or get out of the way. I'm sorry to say we have wasted more than three years festooning ourselves with colorful lanyards and catchy slogans with no effect at all other than money down a rat hole.We aren't paying a group of people to maintain the status quo.

If individual action and "flying the contract" is really effective why are we paying to fund any negotiation by our side? The answer is that "flying the contract" has not been effective in the past and will not be effective in the future as a stand alone or combined with ineffective tactics by our union. We need a complete array of tools and tactics to move forward and we aren't moving forward.

The sad thing is that we have such pathetic leadership and has divided this membership so far a part and it needs to go . They are like a virus and it needs to be teminated because it's getting worse each day, so lets remove it before it kills us completely.

Please note the effectiveness of Airlines going bankrupt who are using the courts to strip money from the pilots. The solution in our case is to use the courts to gain fair compensation from a Company unwilling to part with it. If they don't want to pay us more let's get a legal reduction in required work equal to our loss of real constant dollars. Now that would really impact operations and we could begin to get somewhere in negotiations.
Or we could just sit back and wait for the sure and steady hand of time to continue to slash our income.

The only bad thing is that nowadays, I think we will have a worse chance in court to get a raise than trying ourselves. Everything seems to be anti-labor lately, and definitely the public thinks that we make too much, even though we don't interact with them. Public sympathy is zero; government sympathy is zero; the courts, for the most part, have zero sympathy. I believe that we are the best chance in getting a fair contract, not the courts. Now, how long that will take is anyone's guess...

courts
 

Jungle...

Just how do you think you will use the courts to force a reduction in our work because inflation is eroding our purchasing power? I can tell you're not only not a lawyer, but you haven't been close to a Holiday Inn Express for some time!

If you think your idea is the way the union ought to proceed...I have one questin for you....WHAT COLOR IS THE SKY IN YOUR WORLD???

JMO

Pilot7576

So because you believe there is some vast conspiracy by the public, government and the courts to keep us below parity with what we haved earned in the past we shouldn't even attempt such a move? OK then, back to the lanyards, buttons and stickers. They have been mighty effective so far.
The last contract would not have been if we hadn't gone through the legal effort to take action apart from talks and made the Company feel the pain of monetary loss greater than our increase in pay and benefits. It will be the same way this time and until we get released or decide to take action by other means, there will be no progress. If we want to speed up that release,I suggest that we explore ALL available options.
Until the Company starts to feel the pain of monetary loss, they will not act. In fact they are now feeling the pleasurable effect of a monetary gain of 5% or more in reduced pilot labor costs each year they don't give us a raise, and for many of us this has gone on for five years. Your move.

Jungle,

What were those legal efforts that you speak of? I'm just a new guy trying to learn from the past...

Perhaps you remember the lack of aircraft flying as a result of legal labor action.

Pilot 7576: I wouldn't ever think of insulting you by using a tired cliche about the color of your sky. You are my brother in this matter. If you or anyone else here has a better idea I'm willing to listen and not reject any proposal out of hand. My point is that insanity is repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Don't accept doing what we've always done as the final answer and let's open the door to other possible ways of approaching the problem. I suggest this with great respect to the members of the Union and the EB. Let's keep it strictly business, but let's also keep in mind that we are losing with the current stategy.

Any chance you guys could take this to the B&G and off this public forum?

Beadwindow?

Exactly.......!