FDX: ACARS block out time changes
 

I thought the union convinced the company that the acars blockout time should not be changed by ramp tower to reflect their "cleared to push" call. my last flight the acars paperwork showed a diff of 15 min from my trip recap block out time. that's alot of lattes!!

Call Grievance/Contract Admin with the details, please. They need to know about things like this.

ACARS is the accepted standard for block out unless it is malfunctioning. It ensures federally mandated limits are not exceeded. For our safety, of course.

Does the FAA know about Ramp tower's shenanigans?

I've also seen this done on many occasions.

Not sure you want to push that too far! What is the FAA definition of (Block) flight time? I believe you will find it says that it starts from the time the aircraft moves under it's own power to the time it stops moving under it's own power. Neither push back nor tow in are included.;)

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....0.1.1&idno=14

PART 1—DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

Then I guess all the pax guys are doing it wrong.

At UPS is is under own power or tow for the intent of flight. I think this is the standard 121 of Block Time.

I would call the FAA.

BrownBusDriver

When I was at America West the ACARS captured 5 time events. (Push, Out, Off, On, In)

PAY BLOCK = pushback brake release to arrive on gate brake set.

BLOCK TIME = the 2nd brake release (motors running, doors closed, etc) event until arrive on gate brake set.

FLIGHT TIME = rotation to touchdown.

That was over 3 years ago and prior to the marriage with the East, so take that FWIW.

Also when ACARS was turned on for tracking times, the initial system did not account for that "pay" time duing pushback. As I remember it ALPA was able to prove that past practice had been to pay crewmembers during pushback. So the system was altered to capture those times described above.

What they do now is anyone's guess ...

But I do remember there were only a few times when PUSH time was the same as OUT time. When a ramp parking with airstairs was used instead of a gate with jetbridge. Start-up and taxi without a pushback meant PUSH and OUT were the same time.

BrownBus described the system at UPS.

Just for clarification ... Are you calling for pushback and releasing the brake at 1500z. Ramp responds hold your position for traffic. Then you receive actual pushback clearance at 1515z when the alley clears. So your "ramp operations" goes back and adjusts the aircraft "OUT" time to 1515z ?

In spite of another poster's opinion on the definition of block time. I think it is a definite "grey" area for a company to routinely go in and alter ACARS transmitted block times whenever it wants to. What is their official clock ? Who is observing the aircraft movement ?

Either ACARS is the official timekeeper or it is not. It is typically an FAA aproved system. I don't think you can chose to use it when you want and ignore it when you want ... MEL situations aside.

Until recently the beacon and doors used to block you out. I have noticed in the last few months that the ACARS parameters have changed back to the doors and engine rotation, or push back. Talk to your local MX guy. There is an easy way to change those parameters, if your so inclined. Good luck!

It seems that most times the ramp tower backs the block time to an earlier time than ACARS, rather than the reverse. They have more of a vested interest in an earlier block out than you do, don't forget!

[QUOTE

Just for clarification ... Are you calling for pushback and releasing the brake at 1500z. Ramp responds hold your position for traffic. Then you receive actual pushback clearance at 1515z when the alley clears. So your "ramp operations" goes back and adjusts the aircraft "OUT" time to 1515z ?[/QUOTE]

Doors closed, tug hooked up, brake released, beacon on acars says you blocked out. (tug driver moved us a bit). ramp tower holds the pushback for traffic, then changes your out time to match their radio call. our definition of pay is block out to block in, so for long flights it can add up.

Sounds "fishy" to me ...

;)

Did the ramp tower clear you to push, and subsequently hold you for traffic? If not, I'd say they have every right to adjust the block out time.

It may come as a surprise to some...But, we don't really decide when we are going to block out on a flight.

But what is your FAA approved timekeeping system ? Is it ACARS ? Or is it ramp operations ? Or is it the Captain ? Or the Chief Pilot ?

I'm just saying that it should be stated in your Ops Manual what is the official system ? What is the back-up system ?

Maybe these are the appropriate questions to consider ...

In some of our jets it is whatever the heck the S/O feels like writing down.

Schedule ... ;)

From the FOM:

Block-out
Block-out occurs the moment an aircraft first moves from the blocks for the purpose of flight or repositioning on the airport (including pushback or tow). Block-out time is automatically determined by ACARS equipped aircraft

There you have it ...

I'm not arguing about what determines block out time. We use ACARS, when equipped.

But, when the ACARS time is obviously incorrect, they can and will, correct it. Have you ever had an ACARs initialize with the wrong current time? I've had them send times that were off by 15 hours. And guess what, they corrected them.

At FDX, if they haven't cleared you to push, ACARS shouldn't block you out.

That is correct because that is the way it is addressed in the contract. The FAA could care less if the push time is changed because it does not meet their definition.

So, What was your point?

You said, "Not sure you want to push that too far!" What do you think someone should be afraid of? Other than finding out that the FAA doesn't give a crap.

The FOM and CBA use aircraft movement to determine "block out". All of our scheduling/pay parameters are based on that definition.

USAir played with the times so often I doubt they knew what they were capturing. First it was doors closed, brakes released. Then they added oil pressure. Then it got changed again at one time so that you had to show movement on the IRSs. Then it got changed again so that if you pushed, started but didn't get to taxi, the times were adjusted. Also, if you were held off a gate on landing, same hijinx. It was typical of their attitude.

Thanks. Point taken. FAA rules are less restrictive.

I'm in the plane that the SO puts whatever he feels like.

Ours, on the MD-11, is OOOI, and is labeled as such on an ACARS page to edit them ourselves! I have seen the ACARS be off on times by many hours as well, usually as a result of not having the correct UTC time set prior to block out!

Maybe you have a completely different corporate dynamic but ours was constantly adversarial. The company figured the worst case was it would be grieved and presented to an arbitrator. Worst there is they would lose and have to do what they agreed to do by contract. So, essentially nothing to lose and a possible new precedent established.

I don't miss the hassle.

When I was an FO, I often saw Capts change the Out time to give the ramp an on time block out. I've never noticed a block out time change otherwise, thouh, but I have seen block in times change!

The OOOI page does not change the time that is sent to the company. I know you can change it and it prints out nicely. But, that is not the time that is sent automatically (unless they are the same) to the company. If you want to doctor your time you have to manipulate the clock in the ACARS before you block out then let it update after you start to taxi.

Not that I would know anything about any of it. :rolleyes:

I never mess with it myself! The only thing I do that might affect when the jet logs a time is when I remind the FO not to disarm the doors while we have no crewstairs to egress the jet if needed! Its a safety issue! Other than that all I know is that my jet says "The World On Time" vice "The World Early" ;)

Are you sure? Next time, check the times in FORTE.

Sure he is sure!:rolleyes: He also just happens to be WRONG, as usual.:D

Hey young man I'm not wrong. I had some old dude explain it to me. He'd done it so much his shoulder was bothering him. ;)

Maybe somethings changed in the past decade with the ACARS, but back when I liked the ramp folks and tried to help out I know I was right.