PurpleTail

I vote for the company to publish the available training dates and slots. Then pilots bid for the training dates based on seniority. Pretty much just like we do for vacation time each year.

Then training date swaps could take place without having to get any other approvals. Very simple, not sure why everything has to a rubix cube

Laughing_Jakal

Years ago, there was a guy that was blocking training slots ostensibly because he thought he was entitled to any slot before a "Junior Guy". By saying no....all he did was mess over a lot of people. He seemed to think the training swap came out of his hide. Eventually, he was reported to ask for compensation from the swappees to get his approval. This unsat situation went on for just a little while before Pro/Stan rolled in on the guy.

Whomever this loser is who is holding training swaps hostage should be dealt with immediately. Pro/Stan should be notified, and if he or she has any friends left, they should roll in too. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

Dakota

So seniority means nothing then? Demanding compensation is wrong, but if the last guy on the list works a deal with a guy that is going to training -- say next month, he gets to bypass all of those guys senior to him? Let's just get rid of the seniority system all together.

Unknown Rider

I think it's a little different situation right now. Training swaps are being conducted per the CBA right now. It appears there are some people who want to conduct swaps right now on a seniority basis vice the CBA since they can't seem to find someone to swap training dates. Maybe this is something that should be considered in the next contract but trying to work a deal with the company to get around this at present is just wrong. This needs to be thought through carefully however and not rushed just to make some senior people happy right now.

31Hz

There is a captain negotiating directly with management to set up a voluntary swap list by seniority. Like it or not, the current CBA language has no provisions for seniority concerning training swaps. This type of voluntary system should only be implemented privately between crewmembers. If you don't like it, e-mail your union block rep and ask him to change it in the next contract. That's what I did.

Gunter

Finally, the motivation for all this is revealed.

Let's not forget this has been created by the messed up bid process we have. All management has to do is post more numerous and smaller bids. This desire to tie everyone's hands in almost 1.5 year long training letters is odd. There are so many changes, cancellations and passover pay problems that the end result is a lot of extra pain and cost for little, if any, company gain. The decision to keep the system as it was back in the day is ill thought out.

So now we to get fight over who goes in what slot due to the timing of the training and our seniority. Someone in a high place just doesn't care or get that the most senior bid awardees don't like going to training in the summer or holiday slots. Those senior in seat are willing to give up pay and wait another year to get the slot they like. The funny thing is they end up waiting many years as the bids continue to be ill timed over and over again. Why not let the more junior guys bid for the least desirable slots with little bids? us. Our current plan FORCES the more picky of us not to bid up. Then we get chastised for being "part of the problem". Not true. Management created a problem that is easy to fix. Or do they just like to chastise people?

The passover pay issue is big because of these huge bids. This must cost the company big $. Wonder if somebody has figured out how much? This spreadsheet is probably not briefed at meetings.

If we can't get smaller bids, I'm all for letting us bid for the slots in seniority order after the bid closes. Should we give up anything to obtain this type of common decency? I say no. But it should change. Might even save the company $$ in the long run.

That will solve the problem of "the training swap" request.

Question - Does signing a POP letter relieve the company of paying PO for another reason not related to the training swap?

MaxKts

Answer - NO

Gunter

BTW, the perfect time to work some meaningful change was when the company was not happy with their passover responsibilities for HKG CA. Somehow we missed that opportunity.

Why do we have such a tough time recognizing leverage?

parks31

There are plenty of people who want to swap. I received 4 phone calls last week by junior fo's wanting to train earlier. The Captain mentioned does'nt want to use our current system but create a new one, which is fine durring contract negotiations. There is a lot of money riding on these swaps for excessed captains. It is a shame that a few people are going to ruin it for them. I can't believe the company or union would even listen to his proposal when all I ever get when I need something is "it's not in the contract."

31Hz

Hypothetical Scenario:
Junior MD11FO awarded 77F on Posting 9-06. Training date Spring 2011.
Junior 727CA excessed to 77F on earlier posting. Training date Spring 2010.
Senior A300CA excessed to 77F on same posting. Training date Summer 2010.
The Junior MD11FO and Junior 727CA agree on a swap.
The senior A300CA can't contractually block the swap.
Management misinterprets the contract so the Junior MD11FO has to get approval from all the pilots in between the two training dates.
Union stops the contract violation.
Am I close? Does the Senior A300CA have veto authority?