TonyC

I am loathe to do this, but ...


Here's another hypothetical situation. Pilots A through F have training dates in January through June. All are Widebody Captains excessed and "downbidded" to Widebody First Officers. They will take significant pay cuts when they are activated in their new seats. The issue of Passover Pay is moot, but the requirement per the CBA to waive claim to passover pay still applies.

Pilot A - JAN
Pilot B - FEB
Pilot C - MAR
Pilot D - APR
Pilot E - MAY
Pilot F - JUN

All six pilots bid "To Be Excessed" so their training is in reverse seniority order. In other words, Pilot F is the most senior, and Pilot A is the most junior.

For some reason, Pilot F wants to train earlier, so he contacts Pilot A, and they agree to a swap. They must contact and receive approval for the swap from Pilots B, C, D, and E who must waive any claim to Passover Pay pursuant to the swaps. Everyone approves, and the new order is this:

Pilot F - JAN
Pilot B - FEB
Pilot C - MAR
Pilot D - APR
Pilot E - MAY
Pilot A - JUN


Under this scheme, Pilot A delays his pay cut by 5 months. Pilots B through E are unaffected by the swap; they suffer no damage, and they gain no advantage. What if Pilot C had proposed another arrangement? What if instead of 1 pilot gaining the advantage of delaying his pay cut by 5 months, 5 pilots gained the advantage of delaying their training by 1 month apiece? Who would see a problem with cooperating and helping each other out? Under Pilot C's proposal, Pilot F moves to January (like in the first case), and all the other pilots slide back one month. The new schedule looks like this:


Pilot F - JAN
Pilot A - FEB
Pilot B - MAR
Pilot C - APR
Pilot D - MAY
Pilot E - JUN


The "I waive Passover Pay" letter gets a little more complicated, but the same CBA process is used to effect the training date swaps.


Now, if I understand the proposal correctly, pilots who choose to cooperate to give blanket approvals to swaps under the specified circumstances would be operating within the confines of the current CBA, and at the same time increasing the potential that everyone could share a little piece of the advantages presented when someone senior to them wants to train, and therefore incur a pay cut, earlier.

This could go one of two ways. Everyone could cooperate and share in the advantages of cooperation. Alternatively, Pilot A can say, "I had a better deal by swapping with Pilot F. I'm not giving up 4 months of pay advantage just so four of my peers can have a month apiece." The former is a way of demonstrating unity and concern for one another, sharing the pain of our present predicament. The latter is a way of maintaiing a status quo of selfishness -- I've got mine, pull up the ladder.



If you don't understand it that way, I encourage you to contact the individual trying to coordinate the effort directly. I won't be responding to posts here, but I will continue to respond to e-mails (as I have already) and phone calls (as I have already). My information is on the ALPA website.


Thanks for your thoughtful consideration.






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Busboy

Let me see if I've got this straight...

If someone wants to swap their late training date with someone that has an early training date...And, they get the earliest training date guy to agree to it...Then, every one in between should benefit by moving their training dates, too? What if they don't want to move their training?

Hey...Maybe we should do that with vacation swaps, as well. If I can get someone to trade his Christmas vacation for my February vacation...Then, everyone between Feb and Dec should be able to move theirs closer to Christmas.

And, if I can get someone to trade their 96hr layover in HNL for my week of FNT night hub turns...Everyone in between our seniority should benefit by swapping up to the next best trip.

I've got an idea. If pilot C wants to trade to a later training date, then maybe he should contact every guy with a later training date and ask them to trade. Otherwise, it shouldn't be any of his business what pilot A and pilot F agreed to. He should just sign the passover waiver, and go to training as scheduled.

FDXLAG

Man way to hang Pilot A out to dry just because he doesn't want to give up some of the extra pay his seniority earned him. How does that help unity?

Fix the contract next time around.

Busboy

pilot A is the junior guy in the scenario.

TonyC

I said I wouldn't respond, but Busboy asked a question I should have answered originally. What if someone doesn't want to participate? For example, what if Pilot D wants to keep his training date because his daughter is getting married. Since it's strictly voluntary, he doesn't have to participate. Then it looks like this:

Pilot F - JAN
Pilot A - FEB
Pilot B - MAR
Pilot D - APR
Pilot C - MAY
Pilot E - JUN

Pilot F gets to go early like he wants.

Pilots A, B and E get to move back a month apiece.

Pilot D gets to keep the date he had.

Pilot C gets to move back 2 months.

Everybody gets something out of the deal -- nobody is left behind, and nobody is forced to do anything.


Strictly voluntary -- participate in the Co-Op, or go it alone.






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31Hz

I think it's hilarious that some of the same people who wanted a furlough are mad because the junior pilots ended up with something of value. How can sharing the pain with a SIBA WB captain flying 70+ hours a month be fair? He gets six more months of selfishness and the junior guy gets a new smelling airplane a little later than he could have. This train is being driven by selfishness. Unity is not a goal. The junior guy should get the best trade he can get.

I approve all training swaps -- no questions asked. A blanket waiver would be the same thing. I think that part of it is a good idea. I am keeping my early training date so you can't say I have an agenda. That's too bad because I could have helped a junior guy out.

FDXLAG

You are correct of course. Just responding to this rather harsh comment (I thought).

"This could go one of two ways. Everyone could cooperate and share in the advantages of cooperation. Alternatively, Pilot A can say, "I had a better deal by swapping with Pilot F. I'm not giving up 4 months of pay advantage just so four of my peers can have a month apiece." The former is a way of demonstrating unity and concern for one another, sharing the pain of our present predicament. The latter is a way of maintaiing a status quo of selfishness -- I've got mine, pull up the ladder."

Busboy

.................

31Hz

Pilot A - JAN
Pilot B - FEB
Pilot C - MAR
Pilot D - APR
Pilot E - MAY
Pilot F - JUN

Pilots A and B -- junior captains losing their fourth stripe. No choice.
Pilots C and D -- not-so-junior captains. B727CA was available.
Pilots E and F -- FOs doing a lateral move.

Who voluntarily chose the largest pay rate cut? Why? Fairness is hard to define.

TonyC

And you wonder why I'm loathe to engage here ...


I wish I could use pictures to explain, but I'm stuck with words. Nobody chose a pay cut.



If you don't like it, don't participate.





I promise -- I won't post again. Call my mother names, make fun of my kids, post pictures of my tiny genitalia. I will not post again. I will not post again. I will not post again.


I will not post ...


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