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UPS-Management Crew Taking Directs

Old 07-15-2010, 03:53 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by FrontSeat View Post
I have witnessed myself a check airman who is telling crews that CPDLC and ADS are identical. That they are interchangeable terms.

There is also a check airman going around telling crews that if they are on a redispatch flight plan and for some reason if they cant contact dispatch to get rereleased to go ahead and press on to desired destination if they have the fuel without the ARTR. And that ups will back them up.
Too funny. Oh, please PM me the name of this check airman. I just gotsta know!!
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:34 AM
  #12  
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YouTube - The Flying Deuces (1939) - Full Movie

Laurel and Hardy in the 1939 "Flying Deuces" Came to mind...

Zap to 1 hour and 1 minute if you don't need to kill and hour and ten minutes.

Note they don't use charts and have similar crew rest.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:15 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by FrontSeat View Post
I have witnessed myself a check airman who is telling crews that CPDLC and ADS are identical. That they are interchangeable terms.
If the check airman is explaining this in the context of the way the term "CPDLC" is used after the flight number when checking in with an OCA (i.e. "Gander Center, UPS 213, CPDLC"), that does, in fact, mean that you have CPDLC and ADS capability. Section 4.3.3 of the NAT-PCO Guide in this link explains it.

http://www.nat-pco.org/nat/Current%20Datalink%20GM.pdf

If the check airman is simply saying that ADS is exactly the same as CPDLC, he is wrong.
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:10 PM
  #14  
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Wow- Gumbie is notably silent on this thread. How nice.
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:44 PM
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First of all the chances of you not being able to contact dispatch on a re-release are slim and none. Especially with the availability of SATNAV, HF phone patch, ACARS or ARINC via the bat phone or simply relaying through ATC. ATC has no idea that you are on a re-release, that is strictly a company procedure to allow you to dispatch with less fuel. As a captain and final authority of the flight you signed for, I doubt that as long as you have enough fuel to reach your destination and meet the FAR required arrival fuel the company can do little to fault your decision. Sometimes one has to use a little common sense as the captain of a flight, UPS or any other airline!!!
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SEGATAKI View Post
First of all the chances of you not being able to contact dispatch on a re-release are slim and none. Especially with the availability of SATNAV, HF phone patch, ACARS or ARINC via the bat phone or simply relaying through ATC. ATC has no idea that you are on a re-release, that is strictly a company procedure to allow you to dispatch with less fuel. As a captain and final authority of the flight you signed for, I doubt that as long as you have enough fuel to reach your destination and meet the FAR required arrival fuel the company can do little to fault your decision. Sometimes one has to use a little common sense as the captain of a flight, UPS or any other airline!!!
If you don't receive re-dispatch authorization from your dispatcher prior to the re-dispatch point, you are legally required to fly to your originally released destination (unless you have a published exemption). If you elect to continue without authorization, there's a high probability you'll be self-disclosed upon. Good luck fighting that battle.

Legality is one thing, common sense is another. Never the twain shall meet.

Last edited by nathanexplosion; 07-16-2010 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:35 PM
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you are filed to your final destination but are only released to the airport used as the divert airport in case of not enough fuel at the reclear point and you must get released by dispatch that with the specified fuel at the reclear point you can continue to your final(filed) destination - most companies allow 2 hours prior to the reclear point to contact dispatch by any means and get the wx update and release message
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:22 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Signal Delta View Post
What makes this more comical is that the management crew took a direct in foreign airspace without ever looking at the enroute charts...twice. The AMU is actually CHARTED. Also, the feedback comments (all 3 of the them) on airupsers all state the dispatcher should have included a remark on the flight release as to why/where they were routed. ****??? My assumption is that these three comments were from the crew. What would have been more appropriate would have been the following for our invaluable ACPlz:

REMARK: Do not touch aircraft until familiar with FAR121, company FOM, OPSPECS, and aeronautical charts for route of flight. Do not allow IRO to place phone calls to dispatch while pretending to be the captain. Blindly deviating from flight plan cancels joint authority. Do not fly aircraft into the ground.

And yes, it is ironic that this foolishness just doesn't seem to happen with our line pilots who actually fly for a living...you know, the professionals who we're throwing overboard.
The vast majority of line pilots would have likely made the same mistake. BTW...some of the "professionals who we are throwing overboard" can barely make a voice position report when the CPDLC is inop, in spite of the fact that the format is on the chart...
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck92 View Post
Wow- Gumbie is notably silent on this thread. How nice.
Out MEF most likely. He's a team player, ya know.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SEGATAKI View Post
First of all the chances of you not being able to contact dispatch on a re-release are slim and none. Especially with the availability of SATNAV, HF phone patch, ACARS or ARINC via the bat phone or simply relaying through ATC.
This EXACT scenario happened to me about 2 years ago at UPS. Filed ANC-TPE in a 767 with an airport in southern Japan as the "released" point. Also, just for fun, had a check airman onboard giving us a line check.

When we entered Japanese airspace, about 2 hours prior to the re-dispatch point, I attempted to get the re-release via acars with no luck. (later found out that acars for ALL of Japan was down for about a 5 hour period.)

IRO attempted repeatedly to get a HF phone patch with multiple vendors, no luck. Japanese ATC stated they had no vhf phone patch capability. ATC "attempting" to contact UPS to pass a message, etc... All with no luck. Of course no Satcomm on the 767.

Bottom line, I hit the re-dispatch point with no re-release. Elected to hold on the airway at that fix and continue to try to contact company for about 15 more minutes, still no joy. Got clearance to proceed to "released" airport and about ten minutes toward that airport finally ATC relayed a message from the company with the redispatch authorization. Fortunately for the company I had the fuel and was able to get recleared to TPE.

The check airman onboard never said a thing about the situation, but later one of the domicile (ONT) FQS's tried telling me that it would have been ok for me to proceed on my own to my filed destination using my emergency authority as captain, as you seem to agree with.

I'm sure it would go over real well with ATC to declare an emergency and then proceed from Japan to Taiwan. I'm not putting my ticket on the line as you would with the "just move the boxes" mentality, but go ahead and knock yourself out.

The company is very lucky that we had the available gas not to have put the airplane down in Japan, at a field with no vendors, where we would have timed out. I also learned never to accept a release airport again that was selected ONLY because of the fuel savings, with no common sense applied as to available support. (KIX would have been only about 15 minutes further than the release airport).

I'd do the same next time. YMMV, but I'd like to watch your rug-dance with the FAA if you ever press on without a re-release.
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