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UPS Furlough (Part III)

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UPS Furlough (Part III)

Old 08-17-2010, 05:38 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Soyathink View Post
Sorry your being furloughed but the attitude won't help you. UPS hasn't discounted services for employees ever. You work hard to ship packages right? So does over 400k of other employees than you. Ask the Fed Ex driver what his benefit package is like? Ask the Fed Ex guy what his salary is like. Sure they get a small discount on shipping. I'd rather have the pay. The point I'm getting at is you still would benefit if you shipped UPS. You didn't look at the big picture. Did that money you saved by shipping somewhere else less expensive prevent your furlough? Bashing UPS in a public forum helps how?

You don't have to like UPS. Remember UPS spent alot of money on everyone of the pilot group. They didn't have to hire you. They didn't have to spend the money in training cost on you. They did. They took a chance on you to do a great job for what you get paid well to do. Age 65, fleet retirements, and the economy caused the furlough. Look at how many three man crew jets Fed Ex still has compared to UPS.

Again, I am sorry you are losing your job and hope you find a company your happy to work for very soon. I've been there and know how it is.

Soyathink,

Thanks for the kind words about my furlough. I think it's fair that I have a bad attitude towards UPS. Does bashing UPS in a public forum help ?
Why yes it does ! Venting allows me to keep my sanity for the poor treatment I have received by UPS' latest direction for the pilot group.

I guess it's better to vent than show up with an AK47, or become a drug addict, or a spouse abuser, or alcoholic, or a divorcee. In my opinion, before this accounting excercise is done, there will be individuals in the bottom 300 and beyond that will fall into the above categories. I'm able to use venting rather than the aforementioned pitfalls.

I know you wanted me to ask a FDX driver if they prefer to make 10% less than us and receive a discount on shipping. Well, I'd rather compare apples to apples. If you compare our UPS pilot compensation with our friends over at FDX you will see they do not make 10% less than us.

This forum posts the pay scales for both air units.

FDX:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...rgo/fedex.html

UPS:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...cargo/ups.html

In my case, I make 3.5 % less than my counterpart at FDX. Since I fly International, I receive an override for such that is 43% less than my good friends at FDX. I'm not trying to enter into a "who gets paid more" contest with the good folks at Purple, but; they don't make 10% less than us in order to justify their employee discount. The links above verify this factually. (Disclaimer: the 4a2B language aside from this point).

Did the money I saved by shipping with FDX or USPS prevent the furlough ? Respectfully, I can go in two directions with this.

First, let's say this furlough was about money. Even though I don't think that is the case, I'll play along. In your head multiply the number of airline employees and the number of UPS employees that use FDX because they give out a discount.

Let's say that number is 200k multiplied by $20 of shipping every year. For a second, don't get wrapped up in the numbers, but the product is $4 million dollars. We are constantly bombarded with "Go out and get sales leads". If I were to bring in a lead that generates $4 mil. in sales would that be worth considering.

HOWEVER !!!! I'm not convinced the furlough has to do with the advertised "belt-tightening", "right thing to do to further the business" , "savings we can wrap our hands around" claims made to us by managment.

I'll tell you why:

Scott Davis proclaimed the recession is over.
Kurt Kuehn exclaimed they have made more money than they know what to do with with regards to paying dividends.
AND, the CEO received a 6.2% increase year over year in compensation. I guarantee you, he makes more money than me. If you need factual links to back these up, please tell me. I will post these for your reading.

So I don't have to like UPS ? Well, I'd like to like UPS especially since I was promised this would be the last job I'd ever have for the next 25 years or so.

You make a good point that UPS spent money to train me ? And why would they do that ? Maybe because they were opening an Anchorage base (ANC) and changed their tried-and-true hiring practices to select candidates with wide-body, overwater experience.

Did you ever consider the job I left to come here. How about the many new-hires that separated from the military, or the ones that uprooted their families' lives to move to ANC. Now that they are out of work, who is going to pay for them to move back home to their support networks to endure the furlough ? It won't be UPS. With respect, the villian doesn't appear to be the new-hire, now furloughed individual; it appears to be the employer that is masking this unjust labor snafu against some of it's previously loyal employees.

Soyathink, would you treat your people that way if you were a CEO ? Would you want to be treated that way ?

Next, you claim the economy is to blame for the furlough. I actually agree with you. Certain data suggests the PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) will drag down the E.U., devalue the Euro, and sink the Global Economies into a double-dip recession.

However, I content the one of the metrics that I find valid is comparing pre-recessionary levels with current levels. Cargo being up 33% in Asia (when compared to recessionary times) isn't that spectacular. Cargo being up 5% over than pre-recessionary levels is. Recent data suggest we are near or exceeding pre-recessionary levels. So furloughs may have been justified using your argument. However, also using your argument recalls (or at least the suspension of furloughs) is just as valid. Furthermore, everone else is recalling, they can't all be wrong can they ?

Lastly, how many 3-man jets does FDX have. Please (anyone) correct me if I'm wrong, but the above link to FDX suggests 77 Boeing 727s. Your argument, I presume is they have 77 airplanes with an extra seat and therefore they need more pilots. This argument has teeth only insomuch as what staffing formula is used. Not to bore you with details, but UPS' staffing formular right now is a "band-aid" approach given their choice to reduce the labor force and the resultant of our JA/OT ban. Your argument may have merit, but in the current climate it's just too fluid for me to be convinced that UPS has their staffing under control.

Again thanks for your words about my furlough. It will be #5, but it will be a first being furloughed from a company that is profitable.

FF

Last edited by FliFast; 08-17-2010 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:39 AM
  #42  
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Double Posting

Last edited by FliFast; 08-17-2010 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Computer Illiterate, and my spelling aint that great either.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:52 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld View Post
Really? You think any of the bottom 300 will ever upgrade at UPS? I don't see it happening. I think we will see UAV 747s by the year 2030-2035 and single pilot ops by 2025-2030. Thanks again to DC and CD for standing the line for FO pay.

.

LJS,

I actually agree with your posting. I only highlighted the text worth debating.

The UAV issue is being actively investigated by Fred Smith over at FDX. Fair to say, UPS is looking over his shoulder to see what he finds out. This is just my humble opinion based on comments made by Fred. I think we should keep this topic on the radar.

Will any of the bottom 300 ever upgrade ? Will the bottom 300 get furloughed again and again ?

Interesting stat provided to me by my wonderful accountant:

From mid 2010 to the end of 2020

569 mandatory retirements.

For my part in this, I have started a petition to move the retirement age to 83.

Everything else in your post, I'm in agreement...has this ever happened before ?

FF
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:31 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Soyathink View Post
"the pilot's passport was stolen from his "secure" hotel room. The passport was located in a locked bag (secured with a TSA approved lock), in a supposedly "secure" hotel, where we will be safe, and our belongings safe from pilferage. "

How often do you stay in a hotel again???? "Secure hotel room" thats funny. So no housekeeping right? There is no such thing as a "Secure" hotel room.


"Located in a locked bag" ... How safe and secure is that? If I were a thief, I'd go for the "Locked Bag"
"Secured with a TSA approved lock" TSA=Too Stupid for Arbys. You should know how bright our TSA people are. They are approving locks now? Thats funny. I'm sure those TSA approved locks are unpickable right?

If your room doesn't have a safe the front desk will.

My father was a high ranking UPS manager who lived in the Pac Rim and also in Germany during the cold war. These were assignments courtesy of UPS. Both were over a year not a layover.

So why didn't this pilot contact the US Embassy or Consulate? That would be the first thing I would have done. Guess what they speak Engrish too.

What did the IPA do for him? What did the other crew members do for him? Again how is this UPS' fault? How is this the FQS' fault?

Use some common sense that all.
I really think you should bestow some of this common sense on everyone. What would you have done differently to protect your passport? It seems to me he put it in the best place available. Apparently you think otherwise, but you fail to suggest an alternative to prevent it from happening again.

It's nice to know UPS supports it's employees in times of need. It's truly sad that they were willing to offer zero support in time of need.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:44 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post

It's nice to know UPS supports it's employees in times of need. It's truly sad that they were willing to offer zero support in time of need.
To me the worst thing is that they took his situation and expolited it to the max. They didn't pay him for 2 pay periods! The company wastes so much money yet they take advantage of this kind of situation to get out of paying someone.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FliFast View Post
Soyathink,

Thanks for the kind words about my furlough. I think it's fair that I have a bad attitude towards UPS. Does bashing UPS in a public forum help ?
Why yes it does ! Venting allows me to keep my sanity for the poor treatment I have received by UPS' latest direction for the pilot group.

I guess it's better to vent than show up with an AK47, or become a drug addict, or a spouse abuser, or alcoholic, or a divorcee. In my opinion, before this accounting excercise is done, there will be individuals in the bottom 300 and beyond that will fall into the above categories. I'm able to use venting rather than the aforementioned pitfalls.




I know you wanted me to ask a FDX driver if they prefer to make 10% less than us and receive a discount on shipping. Well, I'd rather compare apples to apples. If you compare our UPS pilot compensation with our friends over at FDX you will see they do not make 10% less than us.

This forum posts the pay scales for both air units.

FDX:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...rgo/fedex.html

UPS:
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...cargo/ups.html

In my case, I make 3.5 % less than my counterpart at FDX. Since I fly International, I receive an override for such that is 43% less than my good friends at FDX. I'm not trying to enter into a "who gets paid more" contest with the good folks at Purple, but; they don't make 10% less than us in order to justify their employee discount. The links above verify this factually. (Disclaimer: the 4a2B language aside from this point).

Did the money I saved by shipping with FDX or USPS prevent the furlough ? Respectfully, I can go in two directions with this.

First, let's say this furlough was about money. Even though I don't think that is the case, I'll play along. In your head multiply the number of airline employees and the number of UPS employees that use FDX because they give out a discount.

Let's say that number is 200k multiplied by $20 of shipping every year. For a second, don't get wrapped up in the numbers, but the product is $4 million dollars. We are constantly bombarded with "Go out and get sales leads". If I were to bring in a lead that generates $4 mil. in sales would that be worth considering.

HOWEVER !!!! I'm not convinced the furlough has to do with the advertised "belt-tightening", "right thing to do to further the business" , "savings we can wrap our hands around" claims made to us by managment.

I'll tell you why:

Scott Davis proclaimed the recession is over.
Kurt Kuehn exclaimed they have made more money than they know what to do with with regards to paying dividends.
AND, the CEO received a 6.2% increase year over year in compensation. I guarantee you, he makes more money than me. If you need factual links to back these up, please tell me. I will post these for your reading.

So I don't have to like UPS ? Well, I'd like to like UPS especially since I was promised this would be the last job I'd ever have for the next 25 years or so.

You make a good point that UPS spent money to train me ? And why would they do that ? Maybe because they were opening an Anchorage base (ANC) and changed their tried-and-true hiring practices to select candidates with wide-body, overwater experience.

Did you ever consider the job I left to come here. How about the many new-hires that separated from the military, or the ones that uprooted their families' lives to move to ANC. Now that they are out of work, who is going to pay for them to move back home to their support networks to endure the furlough ? It won't be UPS. With respect, the villian doesn't appear to be the new-hire, now furloughed individual; it appears to be the employer that is masking this unjust labor snafu against some of it's previously loyal employees.

Soyathink, would you treat your people that way if you were a CEO ? Would you want to be treated that way ?

Next, you claim the economy is to blame for the furlough. I actually agree with you. Certain data suggests the PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) will drag down the E.U., devalue the Euro, and sink the Global Economies into a double-dip recession.

However, I content the one of the metrics that I find valid is comparing pre-recessionary levels with current levels. Cargo being up 33% in Asia (when compared to recessionary times) isn't that spectacular. Cargo being up 5% over than pre-recessionary levels is. Recent data suggest we are near or exceeding pre-recessionary levels. So furloughs may have been justified using your argument. However, also using your argument recalls (or at least the suspension of furloughs) is just as valid. Furthermore, everone else is recalling, they can't all be wrong can they ?

Lastly, how many 3-man jets does FDX have. Please (anyone) correct me if I'm wrong, but the above link to FDX suggests 77 Boeing 727s. Your argument, I presume is they have 77 airplanes with an extra seat and therefore they need more pilots. This argument has teeth only insomuch as what staffing formula is used. Not to bore you with details, but UPS' staffing formular right now is a "band-aid" approach given their choice to reduce the labor force and the resultant of our JA/OT ban. Your argument may have merit, but in the current climate it's just too fluid for me to be convinced that UPS has their staffing under control.

Again thanks for your words about my furlough. It will be #5, but it will be a first being furloughed from a company that is profitable.

FF
Fli,

I have been around UPS all of my life. I have seen alot with UPS. Some good, Some not. UPS has always been a very tight company. If there is a leaner way to run a company they will find it. This is something that will never change in UPS. UPS going public in 1999 was the worst possible thing that they could have ever done. With that the corporate culture at UPS went out the window. Jim Casey's principles were thrown out the window that day. UPS over complicates alot of things that are really not needed. People and Packages Period. People (Customers and Employees) treat them right, take care of them and they will take care of you. Customers give you the business, employees give you the service. The core business, packages will grow. The problem is management and union BOTH have created such a poor working environment that I don't know if a 103 years of this can be changed. In my lifetime around UPS I have seen alot of what Union resentment towards management and vice versa created.

I have said this before that 1800 other UPSers lost their jobs this past year. Most of them in management. I lost my job this past year from a profitable company. My severance agreement stated due to current economic conditions we have had no choice but to eliminate your position. The company is profitable. I was in a hotel room out of town when I found out I was losing my job. I found another job, what else could I do?

What if some FQS' took the team approach with line pilots and line pilots took the team approach with the FQS'? An Olive branch needs to be extended. When BM was IPA Pres, pilots said he was to chummy with mgmnt. Maybe he was or wasn't but if he was maybe he might have been on to something. In Atlanta now you have the majority of the old timers gone courtesy of the IPO. You now have the ones in there that want to reinvent the wheel.

There are alot of variables involved in the furlough. Some make sense and some don't.

I will pm you some stories over the years of employees and what they did to management. I don't want to put it out in a public forum. They will make the passport thing look like a kid that dropped his icecream cone. Maybe some here should look to why UPS did what they did if they even did it. We have seen alot here not go out of their way to help the company because they feel wronged. Maybe the company took the same approach.


Looking at the payscale with the links you provided,
I took a 10 year 757 Captain at both companies
UPS he/she makes $233/hr.
Monthly guarantee: 81 hours*
Reserve guarantee: 81 hours*
(*75 hours per 28 days, converted to calendar month)

Int'l override pay/hr:
Capt/IRO/FO:
$6.50/$4.50/$4.50

Discounted Employee Stock Purchase Program (DESPP) offers 5% discount

Contractual pay raises: Jan 2011 and 2012

Year 2 FO pay in:
2011: $143/hr
2012: $149/hr

Most junior captain hired: Nov 1997 (747-400/ANC)
Most junior "lower 48" captain hired: Feb 1995 (767/SDF)

Per Diem :
$2.25/hr (dom)
$2.90/hr (int'l)*
$3.70/hr (Pac Rim)*
$4.20/hr (Europe)*
*revised each January using formula





Fed Ex he/she makes $200/hour as posted in the links you provided.

Monthly guarantee: 74 hours*
Reserve guarantee: 74 hours*

*Reduced guarantees now rescinded. 68 hours in a four week bid period (74 hours/calendar month) and 85 in a five week bid period).

Int'l override pay/hr:
Capt/RFO/FO/SO:
$9/$7/$7/$6

Most junior captain hired: Feb 2005 (A300/HKG)

Per Diem :
$1.95/hr (dom)
$2.75/hr (int'l)

So it appears UPS makes more than the FDX guys. $33.00/hour more 81 hours Guaranteed at UPS to 74 at FDX. FDX does have approx $2.50 override higher than UPS on INTL. but again UPS pilot is making $33/hour more. Per Diem UPS is .30/hour higher Dom and .15/hour higher intl. .95/hour higher if your links are correct per diem in the Pac Rim and $1.45 higher than FDX in Europe again if the info posted on the link is correct.

If the information is correct in those links it would appear that UPS pilots do make more income. Correct me if that isn't the case. Some information in those links could be missing or inaccurate. We all know if it's posted online it must be true

Last edited by Soyathink; 08-17-2010 at 07:33 AM. Reason: added pay paragraph
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:05 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
I really think you should bestow some of this common sense on everyone. What would you have done differently to protect your passport? It seems to me he put it in the best place available. Apparently you think otherwise, but you fail to suggest an alternative to prevent it from happening again.

It's nice to know UPS supports it's employees in times of need. It's truly sad that they were willing to offer zero support in time of need.
You seem to have not read my posts. It's in there. I leave nothing of value in my room if I'm not in there or it doesn't have a safe. I have suggested a few things. If the pilot wasn't in his room, what did he use for ID in China? What if he was at dinner and the Chinese detained him for something? What would he show that he belonged in China? His KY Drivers License?


UPS can say the samething as you regarding support. I think there is alot more to this story than what is posted. Should UPS get the pilot a new laptop? That had to have been taken too. What about cash and credit cards? That had to have been stolen. Nothing mentioned there either. So it was just a passport that was taken? What did the pilot use as Identification in a Communist Country while out of his room? Stated before most pilots don't carry their passports. Why do we need passports then if thats the case?

What did the other crew members do to help this pilot? What did the IPA do to help this pilot?

This thread was about the furlough not about passports lost and the company to blame anyhow. It is all about stirring the pot rather than working together to get people back to work.

Senseless stupidy and childish actions on both sides of the fence.

Last edited by Soyathink; 08-17-2010 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:54 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Soyathink View Post
You seem to have not read my posts. It's in there. I leave nothing of value in my room if I'm not in there or it doesn't have a safe. I have suggested a few things. If the pilot wasn't in his room, what did he use for ID in China? What if he was at dinner and the Chinese detained him for something? What would he show that he belonged in China? His KY Drivers License?


UPS can say the samething as you regarding support. I think there is alot more to this story than what is posted. Should UPS get the pilot a new laptop? That had to have been taken too. What about cash and credit cards? That had to have been stolen. Nothing mentioned there either. So it was just a passport that was taken? What did the pilot use as Identification in a Communist Country while out of his room? Stated before most pilots don't carry their passports. Why do we need passports then if thats the case?

What did the other crew members do to help this pilot? What did the IPA do to help this pilot?

This thread was about the furlough not about passports lost and the company to blame anyhow. It is all about stirring the pot rather than working together to get people back to work.

Senseless stupidy and childish actions on both sides of the fence.
The issue is not about UPS not taking responsibility for this pilot losing his passport. It's about not helping him when it was lost. A laptop is personal property, & they should not be expected to replace it.

The issue is that they didn't offer any help. Did the IPA offer help? IDK, but the fact that they have to be relied upon for issues like this speaks volumes about the people running UPS. A US Embassy should not be the pilots only option while on an overnight on company business. He flat should have been able to pick up the phone & call UPS on company dime to get a copy faxed over. It should have been a non event, but it sounds like UPS doesn't care about it's employees. Providing hotels where you have to worry about people stealing your belongings? I know a guy who picked CAL over UPS 4 years ago. Seems like he made the right choice.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:57 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Soyathink View Post
Fli,

SYT,

Well-thought response. I see you've been on the short-end with UPS also. Fair to say, what they shovel at us is different than what was shoveled your way...either way it's dung.

Your pay comparisons FDX vis-a-vis UPS are pretty astute. However, of my own admission, I forgot to tell you that UPS pilots are not paid based on equipment, only seat.

Therefore, your comparison of rates is correct. I only compared what I make vs. what my counterpart flying widebody equipment makes-which is 3.5% more. Seriously, that's not the issue on this thread so I won't belabor it.

The core issue here is that a crewmember had his room broken into and UPS made it nearly impossible to "right" the situation. Neither you nor me were in the room, so we can armchair the heck out of why he didn't have his passport, and why the hotel did not prevent this breech of bailment. In the end, the crewmember turned to his employer for aid and it was refused.

I welcome your response, but I take away from this thread that UPS can do much much more to harness the goodwill efforts of 420,000 employees if they put forth an honest effort. However, the longer this disconnect goes on the road to recovering the said mentioned goodwill will become more difficult if not impossible.

At some point the buck ends with our CEO and COO, just like out on the line it ends with our Capts. The choice of how to operate a flight rests with our Capts, the tone of employee relations has to reside with someone in the Ivory Tower.

FF
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:02 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
The issue is not about UPS not taking responsibility for this pilot losing his passport. It's about not helping him when it was lost. A laptop is personal property, & they should not be expected to replace it.

The issue is that they didn't offer any help. Did the IPA offer help? IDK, but the fact that they have to be relied upon for issues like this speaks volumes about the people running UPS. A US Embassy should not be the pilots only option while on an overnight on company business. He flat should have been able to pick up the phone & call UPS on company dime to get a copy faxed over. It should have been a non event, but it sounds like UPS doesn't care about it's employees. Providing hotels where you have to worry about people stealing your belongings? I know a guy who picked CAL over UPS 4 years ago. Seems like he made the right choice.
In your reply you wrote "It Sounds like UPS doesn't care about it's employees"

Posting on the internet there are alot of "It Sounds" but again three sides to every story.

A quick call to home could have a copy faxed.

A passport is personal property. UPS doesn't stand for United Passport Service.





is there a hotel out there where you don't have to worry about your belongings being stolen? If you leave your GPS visable in your car is it the car manufacturers fault that somebody broke into your locked car and stole your GPS?? I know it is UPS' because they don't pay you enough to by a more secure car.

So the pilot in question never did a thing to any FQS? I'm asking because you tend to get what you put in to life.

Last edited by Soyathink; 08-17-2010 at 10:01 AM.
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