These managers are not union members, and are unable to be union members. It is unlike ALPA where you can be "management inactive", these guys are a totally separate group, most of which are good guys. They got into management in one of two ways, they were hired into it (no choice) or they resigned their IPA number and left the rank and file and took a job as a manager, POOF instant captain.

They give line checks, teach in the sim, and even do our flying under the auspice of "proficiency". Imagine how proficient they are getting with pilots on the street. Add to that we have an impotent contract that allows their existence and even hiring while union pilots are furloughed!

The IPA is a great bunch of guys and they have done a lot, but I have been at ALPA as well and I can tell you that for all it's faults, there would never be a situation like there is here at any ALPA carrier (management pilots that are not part of the membership). IMHO

Carry on......

 

I've been ALPA too, and UPS would have eaten them alive. Hell...at USAir ALPA ate their own, so it seems to be an all you can eat buffet.

 

Yes they had a gun to their head. There was absolutely no other jobs in aviation in any part of the world when most of these pilots were hired. They were forced into the position. They could simply not turn down the job offer. They would have been killed on the spot. There were also no other jobs in any field,,,,,,period.

Any pilot who accepts this position with 109 on the street is a low life piece of garbage.

 

Thanks for the info guys. As a 2x UAL furlough it would royally chap my hide to see something like this happen at UAL. These guys paid on the same scale as line guys or are benefiting any way from your contract?

Good luck-

KC

 

You need to take a pill Francis, I dont "accept" this position, it is reality. Someone who does not work for brown asked how this works.

My point was this, some interviewed for a line position (or so they thought) and were given no choice as to what job was offered (management). Others left on their own accord.

Did they have to take it, no. Were there other jobs, absolutely. And I never implied anything other than that. I abhor the fact this airline has this structure, I would be at work if it didn't exist because they would be under the same guidance the rest of the rank and file are.

I was simply trying to inform those not employed here how it happens that we are in this position. (you know, help others understand)

When the rest of the aviation world gets the picture of how this wonderland works, then maybe they will understand our plight with better clarity.

Do I like it, &*%@ NO! But those who aren't employed at workers paradise may not understand how this works (thankfully, and if I did before I got hired I would have stayed put where I was before this disaster)

Back to the soup kitchen

 

At the risk of getting flamed again and provide INFORMATION I will say that I really dont know what pay scale they are on, and I would defer that to a more senior brown pilot. They fly FAR limits, and have no protection under the UPS/IPA CBA.

Those flying are all "captains" (even though some were hired as late as 2006-07) not sure about the sim techs or school house types. Really have no hard information on their benefits or anything else. Latest rumor is that four line guys went in this round up, but thats a rumor. Why anyone would do it is beyond me, seems to me you could be there one day and gone the next if you took that job.

Maybe someone with more info could chime in on what they know about it.

 

I don't know much about their pay either there Section Eight, but I think it varies greatly depending upon when they were hired. And what "level" of management they are classified.

They do "benefit" indirectly by our contract in at least a few ways. They sometimes fly whole pairings that are/were constructed using our contract language in regards to rest, catering requirements, layover patterns, crossing language, etc ...

Also when they are paired with an IPA crewmember, our contractual duty hours can play a factor in limiting their day as well.

Two or Three managers paired together is a scheduling free-for-all. Probably should be a few airspace NOTAMS posted as well ...

 

In the next contract coming up there will be no mention of FQS's. All the jobs they are currently doing will become the IPA's. I guarantee that! No one is going to sign a contract that says otherwise. There MAY be a few left to do the actual check airman stuff, but I don't think we really need 32 check airman for a fleet of 12 and crew force of 390 or so.

We see the way UPS is going with IPA jobs. They replace us with these FQS's and furlough line pilot who are perform the same class and craft work the union is doing. This will be a HUGE issue when our negotiations come up really soon. So if I were an FQS that thought I hit the lottery. Think again.

Once negotiations start this will be one hot topic!!!!

 

Being an FQM myself, who was here from the beginning of the airline, it is interesting to see how certain key historical points are missing from this discussion. In particular, the fact that many of the FQMs in the beginning of the airline were in total agreement with the current IPA position, and believed that the "wall" should be eliminated. Never forget that MANY FQMs paid a heavy price when the IPA, in their official position, turned their back on the FQMs during their early 90's attempt at integration. Knowing that there is strength in numbers, there is little doubt that this integration would have been successfuil if the IPA had simply welcomed the integration back then. What is even more astounding to me is the extrordinary amount of your union dues that the IPA has spent on VERY high priced attorneys, trip reimbursement to UPS for IPA (pilot) committees dealing with this, and Washington based Benefits and Retirement Attorneys and analysists to develop (hugely flawed) promotional material for FQMs to help in their "card" decision. Then there is the cost of banners, stickers, and other useless tokens, and the costs go on & on. The position the IPA took in the early 90's was clearly a critical misstep, and has cost the IPA membership dearly - in many ways. Regardless of the seemingly unending rationalizations as to how the IPA became the victim of UPS' predatory tactics, I believe that the IPA is the only one to blame for the "wall" that exists - and many of the FQMs that are often vilified on these message boards (and, some might argue, the pilots that were furloughed) are the very ones that paid the heaviest price for the IPA's misstep.

So where do we go from here? I can only tell you that each insult lobbed at an FQM on these message boards probably means one less "card" that is signed. Sure, I understand why anger is directed at the FQMs. I'm as thick-skinned as they come, and rarely take it personally. The furlough struck a nerve, to say the least. But, I don't know a single FQM that believes the furlough was a good idea. I know that the FQMs are on the front line, and are (whether justified or not) perceived as the face of upper management - where these decisions are really made. All I'm saying is that if you really want the FQMs to join you, don't treat them like the enemy.

Trust me - I'm not naive enough to believe that this post will change anyone's mind, but I hope it will inject some reason and perspective into the discussion.

 

Well, this is not the early 90's anymore. I was not here back then, so I don't know what the leadership was thinking. My guess is a certain leave us alone and you FQM's can do your own thing attitude. Obviously things have changed at UPS over the past 20 years, and it has not been for the better. I have no problem with the union doing everything they can to make sure the airline within the airline crap stops! If they want to fly a banner over your house on Sunday morning, then I go for it. What you think is a "uselss token" is probably going to help get rid of the current system.

As far as insults, I have not read too many here. I just read many facts that you may take as an insult because sometimes the truth hurts. You guys are doing the jobs that should be done by IPA pilots. No other airline does what UPS does, for a reason. Not many airlines treat the pilots here the way it does. I am a liability here, not an employee. I know many great FQM's here at UPS. In fact, I will go as far to say that I only know a couple of FQM's here that I don't think very much of. That does not change the fact that times have changed from the early 90's and this separate airline crap has got to go!