dckozak

Recently got hosed in a SUB situation. Trying to understand sec 25 H of our contract (substitution) and only got a headache for my trouble!
Question. Has anyone not received at least OTP when declining a SUB??
I got zilch, nada, when I turned down a SUB. Here's the set up.
Trip extended in the field so as the next trip (MEM AM start) was conflicted so couldn't operate. Contacted sceds and not offered a trip in the fours after the conflicted trips original show time. Dropped trip TAFB 69:43 (less than 72 TAFB). While still on extended trip but more than four hours after showtime of dropped trip, offered M/U that met SUB perimeters. Declined SUB and lost all trip value and no OTP bank. SUB window shows as long by the company (not sure why) but in any case I thought that once you not been offered a trip in the initial window you would get trip guarantee (short trip) or 18 hours credit (long trip).
The company out (as I read it) is 25 H 6.b iii (c)


rejects a substitution assignment which is offered by CRS or through VIPS:
(a) prior to the scheduled showtime of the original trip; or (not a factor)
(b) during a required contact or availability period; or (in sch rest)
(c) while on Company assignment during his substitution window (Yes on extended trip still but outside of 4 hour window)

KnightFlyer

I feel your pain (headache)

Did you elect OTP in VIPS? 11c explains how it automatically happens - were you still eligible for OTP?

11. Election of Open Time Priority In Lieu Of Substitution
a. A pilot eligible for substitution on a non-PMU trip may elect OTP by
notifying CRS via VIPS as follows:
i. any time prior to the showtime of his original trip if he was notified of
substitution eligibility prior to showtime; or
ii. when notified of his substitution eligibility if he is notified after
showtime.
b. If a pilot becomes eligible for substitution on an PMU trip, and rejects SUB,
he shall not earn any credit hours for that trip, and shall revert to his
original OTP status.
c. If, while still eligible to elect OTP, a pilot forfeits trip guarantee as provided
in Section 25.H.6., (above), he shall be placed in OTP automatically.

RedeyeAV8r

I have always received OTP bank when I decline sub. As a commuter I almost always decline. I hate to ask this, but what does Contract enforcement say?

Popeye

Are we getting tired of being screwed by the intricate decision trees that do more to keep us on our heels when it comes to schedules and pay? The simpler flatter tax idea is being borne out of just this type of incomprehensible bureaucratic language fiasco. This complexity doesn't help us, it helps the company. When asked, I suggest we get rid of this nonsense and get simpler contract language.

Just my opinion. Sorry for the thread creep. And for those of you far smarter than I am, I appreciate your sound interpretation and counsel.

dckozak

I did not or could not. when I declined the SUB everything went away. No questions, offers, just a SUB window that disappeared and no sign of anything to request or messages suggesting I have OTP or not Well that one of the questions. The ALPA quick read in our portable calander doesn't seem to address any situation where OTP is not offered. Also the decision tree doesn't seem to consider substitution while still on a trip. The page before seems to (try) to address the issue but (like everything with SUB) is hard to understand.

The main issue is whether I even need OTP. Having not been assigned a trip within fours hours of the (dropped trip) scheduled show, I believed I had met the requirements of being available to accept or decline a SUB and the company failed to offer one in the required time window. Whether long or short (sub window), I thought I was entitled to some "love" that wasn't forth coming

fdx727pilot

Sounds like you might want to review section 4BB3 to see how substitution works when caused by trip extension. If you got the overage from the extended trip, you are not entitled to substitution for the same time period. (4BB3c)

Scheduling may have removed your subbed trip when you turned down the M/U trip.

PastV1

I believe you have a choice of accepting the overage for the trip you are on or accepting the pay as of you flew the trip in conflict but not both. You havent mentioned how long the follow on trip was.

Adlerdriver

dckozak,

Sitting at home and having your trip cancelled or holding for an hour inbound and missing your next hub turn is one way most of us may have experienced substitution. There’s a big difference between these scenarios and the trip extension that keeps you out for a while.

Unfortunately, you treated this as if you were actually available for substitution in a normal “availability period” which is when you have the option to decline a sub trip and get OTP. You were out on a trip which is a totally different animal.

There is actually a whole page devoted to this scenario in the pilot calendar. It’s the page to the left of the substitution flow chart and is labeled “Sub & Overage Options Due to Trip Extension”. The flow chart is for somone considering their options while sitting at home or in domicile after they just found out their next trip is no longer there. It's not where you want to be looking when you're already out on a trip.

When you’re notified of the conflict, you have to choose one of the 3 options listed (overage, sub or OTP) and you have 2 possible deadlines for that choice. With a short sub window, if you want OTP, you need to make that choice no later than the show time of the trip in conflict (the one you would be electing OTP for).

If you don’t want OTP, you have until 30 minutes after block in from the trip that was extended to choose either the overage for the extended trip or substitution. If you do nothing, the default is that you elected substitution.

In your scenario, you didn’t have an “initial availability period”. You weren’t available because you were still out on the extended trip. The availability requirement only applies to someone who has the option to be “unavailable” – i.e. a pilot not already out on a trip.

Since you didn’t make a choice prior to the show time of the trip in conflict, you didn’t have the OTP option any longer. When you’re out on a trip, you don’t need to have an availability period since they know how to reach you. If they have sub trip for you, it just needs to fall in the appropriate sub period in accordance with the contract. If you turn it down, then you’re declining substitution and you’re not going to get trip guarantee. You should at least get the overage for the extended trip.

I will caveat all this with that fact that I’m not contract enforcement and I may not have explained this perfectly. Also, since I obviously don’t know all the details it’s probably worth running it by an expert just to be sure.

FlybyKnite

Caveat not required if you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

dckozak

Yea I think I "learned" a little more about SUB that I didn't know before this. In my defense it is way too complicated, and at 0200 in the AM, it's hard to learn (let alone read) the complex parts of our contract. Look I've only been here like 20+ years, you can't expect to know everything about how we interact with the company in such a short period of time. Maybe my failure to understand SUB will help someone reading this thread in the future.
On the bright side, I did get to take my daughter on a collage tour I didn't think I'd be home to do.