FDX TA: PIC with double crews
 

FDX TA: Pilot in command/captain of record determined by seniority for doublecrewed flights. sec 22.B.2 Why the change in the way we do it now? Doesnt it suck for the captain who bids the line to lose the flight/landing to a captain who bids a double crew line? Lots of potential for abuse by senior capts bidding nothing but two crew lines ( and racking up the deadhead NW miles) but keeping current by trumping for the landing. we already have too many professional RFOs begging for landings to stay current, but never bid a line that might actually give them a landing. Ive seen more than one captain recently tell a senior rfo no, bid a line and work for a living. Anyway, I thought this issue was already debated and resolved. Why the change? Was it a union request or management?

Haven't seen to many pure Relief Capt double crew pairings. Neither are there pure RFO lines unless it is a single deptature line. (for the most part anyway:))

Don't they try and build lines with both relief and operating pairings on them?

When we first started KIX-MEM the pairings were built with FDX18 and FDX7018. If you had the pairing with the FDX7018 you were the Relief Captain. Then came the AL K. rule.:rolleyes: Harry J. had the pairing with FDX18 so he was designated PIC. Harry J. was very junior. Al K. was quite senior and because his pairing had the FDX7018 he was the R/Capt.

At alert the crew was advised that they had a jumpseater, a FAA Maint. Inspector. The senior AL K. had a problem with the cockpit being too crowded. When the crew met the inspector they convinced him take the flight a couple of hours later that stopped in Anchorage. All was fine, the crew thought. When the FAA guy's boss found out about it it became a big deal because they bumped an Inspector. Al K., the senior guy that caused the issue in the first place said "Hey, I was not PIC" The PIC of record had his ATP suspended for two weeks, and the policy was changed to the senior pilot was always PIC.

Then a number of years later after CDG-SFS started they started building Captain lines that had a dhd to CDG fly CDG-SFS, dhd KIX, fly KIX-MEM. Those trips were very senior and the other Captain was normally junior so he was bumped back to R/Capt on those legs. This caused a problem for a number of Captains that were bumped back. JL changed the policy so the Captain with the main pairing was the PIC and those flying those two leg around the world flights were the R/Captain. ALPA took the position that it should remain by seniority. The company and ALPA could not agree so we now have one Captain and three F/Os, problem solved!:)

Tell 'em to go cry into a bag of money....

One could argue a case for either way. I personally think you should fly what you bid and if you want to be PIC bid a flying line. For what ever reason the union wanted the senior capt as PIC and thats what we got. The good news now it is clearly defined and we now what to plan for.

I agree you should BID what you want to fly and fly what you are awarded............Trip trading and swapping aside.

Do we allow the senior FO (RFO) to tell the Junior Front seat FO to get out because I need a landing?

The Answer is No. Some of those RFO trips go very senior because of the DH's involved. The Senior FO already exercised his seniority rights bidding it and thus should be the RFO for that trip..........just like a CAPT RFO.

I sometimes fly as CAPT RFO. I have no problem doing the walk around, brewing the coffee and Cooking/serving meals and taking the 3rd choice of Rest periods........even if I am the most Senior on the airplane. This is a classic case of a just few A$$ holes making this job harder than it needs to be.

Question for NW or UAL Delta and UPS or any other LONG Haul folks?

When you folks operate a ultra Long haul flight (i.e double crew )

Do most of you have 1 CAP and 3 RFO's?

If you have 2 CAPT's and 2 FO's, how is this handled at your specific company?

Do these crews stay together for the return trip or do they separte and operate different trips once at the overseas destination?

Does one crew do the Take-off and the other crew do the landing? and how is the PIC determined?

Who the he!! cares. Big frickin deal. I thought once me made it onto the property we put our measuring sticks away.

Show up, fly your d@m pairing, enjoy your time off and go count your money. We have bigger issues to deal with than this crap.

As an F/O I saw the Captain RFO scenario play out several times. First of all it was mainly a handful of very senior Captains who would fly these lines so I would see them on a regular basis. Some of the Captain RFO's would be very diplomatic and show up as a team player. However there were a few who would show up in Paris Ops, Osaka, etc. and just walk up and announce that I'm the PIC and change the FPR to reflect that this is my operating leg. Sometimes on the last leg of the trip this would take away the F/O's last landing for the pairing. You have a crew that has been flying together for several days to possibly over two weeks and here comes a Captain as RFO who stirs the nest and possibly adds tension to the cockpit. The CRM on some of these flights has been less than exemplary to say the least. As I previously mentioned some of the Captain RFO's were very diplomatic but several others were not and it was to the detriment of the crew operating that trip.

Ditto all of the above.... I've seen it all and it p*sses me off! Senior Capts bid the lines because they're no brainers and other A$$wipe Senior Capts bid the lines just to be A$$es.

Bottom line: We were STOOPID to get rid of Capts as RFO pairings. I hope those lines are here till I retire... why you ask? Because it means more Capts on the Capt seniority list. Hopefully, I won't have to explain that benefit.

Personally, I prefer whoever gets the award is PIC. But it looks like we're doing it ALPA's way now......

Who is WE? im regards to being too stupid to get rid of these pairings?
ALPA doesn't have any say, in other words there is no Contractual language to prevent it and Why would you want to prevent it?

I agree with you, I wish all RFO's were CAPTs. It means more CAPTs and shows that the Company is willing to pay $200 plus an hour for FO's.

Every Airline has their A$$ Holes. We are no exception, but the number of them is very small.

The brand spanking new contract we just ratified allows >12 hour flights on the MD11, so UPS hasn't actually scheduled anything that would require a double crew yet. We are all have the same questions you have...Time will tell.

Stupid Question
 

I know someone posted a link to the FEDEX TA. I couldn't find the post. Does anyone have a link?? I'd appreciate it....trying to find some light reading while waiting for KD to call.
Geauxfly

Thanks
 

Thanks for the link KnightFlyer! Appreciate the light reading.
Geauxfly

Key to the TA passing....

It ain't the pay...

It ain't the retro pay...

It ain't the trip rig...

Scope/retirement/agency shop? Nah...

But from now on by Gosh...if we are hub turning...we get a MINI-SNACK!

A mini-snack! Hot dayum!

Per Diem: 2 dollars per hour.

Signing Bonus: 100 million dollars.

Having the coffee delivered to the jet: Priceless!

FJ

Watching some of the retired O-6/O-7's carrying the jug of shame........

That was priceless!

Having the prior Navy enlisted Capt tell the retired O-7 AF RFO to get him a ****ing cup of coffee was pretty good to. :) By the way, the General deserved it...

Past...

There are about 30 nonmember Herpes SOs. They should be exempted from the new coffee jug rule - they should have to carry 6 (or as many as will fit) full jugs in their "Jepps" bags and 2-3 in their other hand.