Cargo Cut-out
12-27-2011, 11:17 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Socket Drawer
Posts: 1,797
Originally Posted by 4A2B
this is what mine says 
3. Domestic Crew Planning Limitations
Crew Planning limitations shall apply until 48 hours prior to showtime of a trip or series of trips, except that such limitations do not apply to a sequence of trips that includes an optional assignment (e.g., make-up, trip trade, volunteer or draft). Trips constructed and revisions that occur after that time shall be governed by Section 12.C.4. through C.6., as applicable.
a. Layover Minimum
A layover preceding duty as an operating pilot shall be scheduled for at least 10:15 hours. A layover preceding deadhead duty may be scheduled to a minimum of 8 hours.
you are probably quoting the operational rules, not pre planning or bid packs.
3. Domestic Crew Planning Limitations
Crew Planning limitations shall apply until 48 hours prior to showtime of a trip or series of trips, except that such limitations do not apply to a sequence of trips that includes an optional assignment (e.g., make-up, trip trade, volunteer or draft). Trips constructed and revisions that occur after that time shall be governed by Section 12.C.4. through C.6., as applicable.
a. Layover Minimum
A layover preceding duty as an operating pilot shall be scheduled for at least 10:15 hours. A layover preceding deadhead duty may be scheduled to a minimum of 8 hours.
you are probably quoting the operational rules, not pre planning or bid packs.
12-27-2011, 12:36 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 556
Originally Posted by The Walrus
I guess I tend to live in the operational vs scheduled world of our contract. All I know is if you land at your layover city 2 or 3 hrs late, they will "schedule" you 8 hrs beginning 30 minutes after block-in to your next showtime. Of course, you can always call in fatigued after your nap.
If we get the new rules they will not be able to do what you say above anymore! You will need 8 hours of actual sleep opportunity so in the case of arriving 2 or 3 hours late then you need to call in and extend you layover beginning when you get to the hotel to give you 8, not 7 like in your example. Looks another level of protection without having to play the fatigue card as in your example, all good.
12-27-2011, 02:02 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B767 FO
Posts: 421
There are two problems with saying that our, FedEx, contract nearly meets the new rest rules.
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (I know all the UPS/FedEx guys say it can't happen to them, but it CAN happen, and I'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (I know all the UPS/FedEx guys say it can't happen to them, but it CAN happen, and I'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
12-27-2011, 02:57 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 425
A lot can happen in two years anyways ................. We might even have another CBA in place before then .................... Not going to sweat this kind of crap, we have plenty of KOOL AID to go around for everyone if they want to join the party ..........................
12-27-2011, 04:39 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
It is a blessing in disguise. The "greater mortals" now have defined rules. We, the unwashed "lesser mortals" now have only one rule to abide by. Are we fatigued? If so, we stop and go to rest. How long? Hmmm...well the FAR says we can't return to duty until we are no longer fatigued.
And guess what? Since we are not included in the new rule, there is only ONE person who can determine if we are now sufficiently rested.
The person in the mirror.
Let's see what happens the first time some genius from a company decides to take a crewmember to task for that. Answer #1. "I was fatigued." #2. "I went to rest and remained there until I was no longer fatigued and could legally act as a crewmember as defined by the FAR's." #3. "No, I am not allowed to violate the FAR's, because to do so would place my company in jeopardy for willfully violating the FAR's."
Leverage??? Meet the great unwashed "lesser mortals"....
And guess what? Since we are not included in the new rule, there is only ONE person who can determine if we are now sufficiently rested.
The person in the mirror.
Let's see what happens the first time some genius from a company decides to take a crewmember to task for that. Answer #1. "I was fatigued." #2. "I went to rest and remained there until I was no longer fatigued and could legally act as a crewmember as defined by the FAR's." #3. "No, I am not allowed to violate the FAR's, because to do so would place my company in jeopardy for willfully violating the FAR's."
Leverage??? Meet the great unwashed "lesser mortals"....
12-27-2011, 07:49 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by oklatex
there are two problems with saying that our, fedex, contract nearly meets the new rest rules.
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (i know all the ups/fedex guys say it can't happen to them, but it can happen, and i'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (i know all the ups/fedex guys say it can't happen to them, but it can happen, and i'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
12-29-2011, 05:58 AM
#20
Part Time Employee
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
Originally Posted by OKLATEX
There are two problems with saying that our, FedEx, contract nearly meets the new rest rules.
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (I know all the UPS/FedEx guys say it can't happen to them, but it CAN happen, and I'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
First, believe it or not, we aren't the only cargo airline out there. All the others with lesser contracts got screwed with this.
Secondly, contracts come and go; the advantage of being covered with these rules is that they aren't contractual, they don't have to be negotiated, nor do you give up anything for them.
Furthermore, they can't be taken away during a concessionary contract. (I know all the UPS/FedEx guys say it can't happen to them, but it CAN happen, and I'll refer back to my first point, we aren't the only cargo airlines out there.)
I wasn't pointing out that our contract met the new rules as it is OK that we are cutout from them. I do not agree with the cutout and think it is better to have the rules mandated versus negotiated.
My point was for all the pilots expressing gladness (ran into many of them during my 5 nights of hub turning last week) that cargo was cutout because they like what we have. If there wasn't a cutout and everyone was under the same rules there would be little change to how FedEx operates and we could still hub turn 5 nights a week.
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