I love how some of the RJ newbies like calling guys at the supplementals names and somehow coming to the conclusion that we are lowering the bar.

Although the international supplementals' might not be what life is like at the majors, it still beats being at the commuters. I'll take my 2 weeks off, more catering than I could possibly eat, flying one leg every 3 days, collecting my hotel and airline points, and my per diem check that is larger than their monthly pay check and continue to quitely keep my secret while they fly the 8+ legs a day with min rest.

Sounds a lil disgruntled, provide him with facts and he retorts with "still a bottom feeder." Educate urself young man before you come on here a bash a whole group of aviators that are out there everyday flying in some of the most hostile environments with antiquated equipment, no logistical support, and where command decisions are being made in the cockpit and not by a dispatcher sitting in sunny PHX. While ur flying around in ur shiny lil dildo jet with all the pretty lil TV screens and computers to keep ur blueside up and being told to keep ur hands off the controls by a Captain that just started shaving a year ago, we are out there discecting readbacks from controllers that sound like they are talking through coffee cans and strings and their command of the english language is about as well as the knowledge that you display about the industry that you have chosen to profess. So next time you sit down after one of those "LONG" trips to play ur "PLAYSTATION 2" with your lil brother when you should be out procreating the human race, just remember some supp pilot is down in Wanchai having a cold one and a hot one, and he will make sure ur new "Playstation 3" is there for you when you run down from your bedroom (of course in ur parents home) to see what "Santa"(oops I mean,Evergreen, Kalitta, Southern, Twinds, 360, Atlas, Polar, Gemini, Focus, World) has left you under the XMAS tree.

DMF!!!!!!!!!

Well said DC8... Your the man.

OMG !!!!

I AM HANGING THAT POST ON MY WALL !!!!!!


(I bow to you oh great one)

Thats some funny shyte.

And I agree, a guy flying an RJ calling a supplemental pilot a bottom feeder is funny.

And more to the point, is there any advice you guys at FA (or any other ACMI outfit) can give to someone like me who actually wants a job there? I have applied, of course, but anything to make the resume stand out from the crowd (and yes, I'll be resubmitting in a few days when I complete my Check Airman course in the Dash8) would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Q100

Damn and Im the one who's disgruntled and hostile... now that's the funny part... Well what ever dude two each his own... and Im sure that all those guys that bring me my playstation 3 enjoy doing it for way less pay than everybody else does as well..... DMF yourself there pal!!! As for me good thing is Im young and have plenty of time to get to a real paying job....:cool:

Perhaps first you should spend some time in an English class and learn how to spell and form grammatically correct sentences. Then we'll talk about that 'real paying job'.

I don't know how anyone could make 17 years in an rj without eating a bullet. Especially if the guy you sit next to says "dude" every fourth word.

LOOOOOOOOONG LIVE WANCHI!!!!!!!! I love that place!!!

space monkey
 

You are what is wrong with this industry. You are the type to go a major airline via an ab initio program or via some internship without even an ATP and then start hailing yourself king of the world. Now from that lofty perch, you then go and thumb your nose down at everyone else at every other place saying how your job is better, how you wont settle for anything less, and how you are a real man with a real job. Truth is that any senior pilot at said major would slap your ass silly for having such a cavalier attitude instead of one of ultimate gratitude mixed in with humility with a side of sympathy for those at lesser jobs. You are the type to come in to a CAL and wave your shiny new wings around without even the slightest clue of what it was like during the Lorenzo years. The likes you would have washed out of training flying brand new 727's or DC-8's for a major because they require real pilots, and when I say that, it includes being a consummate professional who didnt thumb their noses down at those still flying electra's or even the 4-eng recips around....btw...do you even know what an electra is, probably not and you couldnt give a **** because your shiny new red tail is so advanced and clean and sleek that you wouldnt be caught dead in a lesser aircraft.......the fact that escapes your tragically immature mind is that those real pilots back then, blazened trails that had never been walked before. That nifty little Mach trim in your jet?..........yeah, that was because line pilots were discovering and defining what the hell Mach Tuch was and then going to the OEM's and telling them what was going on, so now you and I can benefit from that and fly shiny new jets that take care of that for us.......but you couldnt give a **** about that right?

I am not defending the low payscales especially on the wide bodies. Fact is, it sucks. I have to ask you though....at 1st year FO pay for an RJ, you are hipocritically keeping the bar low yourself by accepting said job...arent you? yes, i know you just started to grow pubes and have oodles of years ahead of you to get that "real job" so you have to start out somewhere right? Can I ask you how you make it on that small a salary for the 1st couple of years? Do you own a home, are you married? do you have kids to feed? You see, theoretically, no one should be working at the "so called bottom feeders" until they pay at least decent wages. But it doesnt work that way, people have other than money as their reasons....(i think this is what you were referring to as: to each their own) Some are retired military and have a retirement so subsidize their income as well as freee medical and benny's.....that make a huge difference, some have........well, responsibilities. Are they to say no to the 121 non-skeds and hold out only for UPS, FEDEX or SWA while collecting unemployment or working at Home Depot? Fact is pal, UPS, FEDEX didnt always pay well. Do you like history? Well aviation is full of it and it tends to repeat itself. Back in the 70's Panam and Eastern were the ****, no one knew who fred smith was or cared about herb kelleher. AMR, and DAL were just trying to keep up with Branniff and pan am by gettting jets and being competitive while not paying what the formers were paying. In your world, they wouldve been the bottom feeders and their pilots idiots for working there and not at panam. But I'd bet that today, you would blow a senior SWA captain and give him your left nut to have him walk in your resume not to mention get your 737 rating. Or would you be the first in line to give rim jobs to any senior pilot at UAL to have your resume looked at first?

Non-skeds have been around longer than majors have.....fedex grew big time when they acquired flying tigers, ( do you know or care about that?) all nonskeds as well. But above in your post you dismissed this all in the favorite comeback of your age:...whatever......right?
You disregarded how someone was pointing out to you that they brought you your playstation from around the world and disrespected their sacrifice and commitment to keep world commerce moving with your rebuttal: whatever.
It would be like a kid (no not you, someone actually younger like say 8) coming into the cockpit and wanting to talk to the pilot, and hearing him say you are just a copilot and not a real pilot, I want to talk to the real pilot.

Yes, pal...ignorance is bliss......but it also can be downright ignorant, disrespectful, and hostile when it comes from someone sharing the same Flight levels, with those "lesser pukes".

Flying 5 legs a day is tough, I give you due credit for hanging on to the tail of the jet through all that day after day for nothing. Hopefully you will not have a rough career, hopefully you will not be there 8-15 years, get married, have a family then watch as your job goes away for any number of reasons.
Perhaps you would have a stroke of genius as to how then you can get a new job at the then great airline right away and stave off unemployment, or doing landscaping, because if you do we are all ears.

but for those of us that havent been so lucky and have responsibilities and have had to take those "lesser" jobs we just ask that you perhaps ask and try and understand the reasons why. try to pilot a widebody across multiple time zones several times a month. try to negotiate typhoons in the pacific rim over different countries that dont like each other. try and bring home troops from iraq over places that would shoot you down, cut your head off and display on bridge, while being days away from home, away from the wife and kids.....try to understand something called fulfillment and contribution. Do you know that the military front lines dont get paid ****, but yet they risk the "ultimate sacrifice"? in your world they are bottom feeders right? Well there are pilots who bring them back home safe and sound hurricane or no hurricane and do it with little pay but with a whole lot of sense of accomplishment, duty, and that is where they derive alot of their fulfillment from? Have you ever seen a sunrise over the international date line over the pacific ocean? Have you ever landed a jet in India and while laying over, have seen real poverty? Have you ever seen a kid peddle chicklets with his parents peddling cigarettes around the othe side of the corner in a third world countryat 11pm while all the tourists go bar hopping in their town? Witness this a couple of times and you will rapidly gain a certain appreciation to have been born in the USA, and having had the privelage of making it to a level to where you can fly the world and bare witness to all of it? these are some of the things that you havent even thought about because well, you just dont know any better.

But when you add insult to injury on this board, certain people take offense to it and they wish to "educate" you properly. I am aware that this has turned into some sort of rant, but the sad fact is that those of us who have been in the industry longer than RJ's see more and more of your kind come out of the ERAU's or the UND's with an attitude that says: I've paid my 100K tuition, and I want the right seat of a brand new RJ and a fast track to the left seat so that I can get to a major airline in no time and rule the world.....

Bottom line "monkey".......it's ok to want to rule the world and get to the left seat of a 777, just listen 99% more, dont thumb your nose down at anyone that does something you wouldnt do or dont care to and I'd be willing to bet a month's salary that you would perhaps with time gain some real valuable insights that will make you realize the lunacy of some of your positions and judgements.

CAC737, thank you.

Well said, do I hear an Amen!

We've got to find a cure for SJS, maybe we need a telethon.....

Well said but this punk won't listen. He's still working on the 1500 more total time so he meets the minimums to apply at Focus!

18 Wheeler..who u be? Send me a PM

I don't post much on these boards, but felt the need to thank cac737 for voicing what many of us feel. In regards to the differences between Regionals and Cargo, I recently came to Evergreen after working as a Captain at a large regional. Although I haven't been here long, I will tell you that you can tell the difference from the first day of training (better hotel, rental car, better training philosophy, etc). There is also no way to compare flying one leg every 3 days with a long layover in a great hotel, to flying 8 leg days with reduced rest at a commuter. Although I'm new here, I did work a two week on / two week off schedule in Alaska for years, and found that for me that was MUCH better than the 3 days at home (sometimes 2) at a commuter. Finally, all of us aren't going to Fedex or UPS, and for me this a fine place to be.

the real culprits........
 

Hey guys,

I also don't do much posting on these boards, but also felt compelled to share some "thoughts". I can't totally blame monkeyboy though, because he just doesn't know any better. He still has the image of that smiling 19 year old with full uniform and hat sitting in the left seat of a major airliner with the caption: $19,500 ab initio fast track program to the left seat, guaranteed interview or whatever they are marketing nowadays still burning in his mind, and for the lack of a proper education that is all he has to go by......so it totally isn't all his fault. Which brings me to the beef I have with these Gawd damn colleges that still peddle their ****e WITHOUT some dose of reality.

They have a financial back alley agreement with the mesa's or other highly visible carrier and don't fully explain to them all aspects of aviation.
Ah well, I can go on and on but we all know the deal here, but speaking of focus, I just shake my head at some of what I hear about how they do things from a guy I know that works there. Same ol promises of a start up only to %$# their crews while they try to grow.

Oh well, still beats home depot or a cubicle 9-5 contemplating when you will take the stapler and "set the building on fire"....... :D

It occured to me in late 1995 that the 121 Supplementals were the "undiscovered country". I found a niche, made a LOT of money, and had a better life.

-Something comes to mind: The people in the HR departments at the various 121 Supplementals monitor this stuff constantly, and I'm sure that very soon they are going to realize what I realized about 11 years ago- that people WANT to come here. The regionals are imploding; their pay scales have become too high due to longevity, and all that is necessary for those airlines to disappear is for the major airline partner to declare bankruptcy. Don't think so? Look at what happened to Atlantic Coast Airlines. Their major airline partner [United] went into bankruptcy, and their contract came up. United basically proposed to ACA a United Express contract that would have meant losses to ACA. Rather than ask the ACA ALPA and AFA units on the property for givebacks, they decided to try to be their own airline on the east coast.

[I worked at ACA; the management was clueless, and the place fell on its' face. The sad part is that a lot of very nice people lost their jobs last January. Kalitta Air picked up a bunch of these guys.]

"Independence Air" burned kerosene and dollars, and shut down in January.

Part 121 Supplementals can do the "Passenger Pigeon" thing too [I worked at Express One International], but at least you have some quality of life and you will always make money at these places....since it is WAY more profitable to fly a pound of boxes than it is to fly a pound of flesh!

-I kept this secret, this "undiscovered" end of the industry to myself for years. I suspect that kind of like Florida real estate over the past 5 years [with the exception of 2006]...it is going to suddenly become REAL popular to be a 121 Supplemental pilot!

I'm glad to be leaving the whole thing. Thanx!

N!

Thanks cac737!!!!! Well said!

Not all UND grads have SJS. I have ugly square turboprop syndrome. RJ () Shorts []

I graduated from UND, did my time flight instructing and went straight to frieght. I am a turboprop FO right now, I make more than some regional FOs, I like my job most of the time and fairly quick upgrades are possible. Its a long way off but I look forward to flying something heavy across the ocean. Do any companies flying 747s, DC10s or MD11s hire people without turbojet time?

Pilots at my company talk about good times had when they were stuck in exotic locales like Detroit, Louisville, Huntsville or Dallas. When I jumpseated on Polar to Tokyo their pilots talk about good times had all over the world. They also get catering. I only get catering when the FBO guy hooks us up with the extras a corperate jet didn't take. Catering and no autopilot is fun.

I have a good friend here at Gemini who is a DC10 Capt. He went to UND and was hired here from Great Lakes. No jet time. The biggest thing he had flown was the 1900.
We have hired F27 captains into the 11.

The question of lately would be not can you fly it but can you LAND it.

Wow I didn't even realize that this thread was still going..... Damn CAC 737 you made a hell of a lot of assumptions about me and my back ground MOST OF WHICH ARE WRONG!!!! First of all as for me being a GOD DAMN ACADEMY PUKE. No Im not.... I CFI'd flew, 135 and put up with a ton of Bull $hit to get here just like everybody else... and in fact I never knew these academy pukes existed until my first day of ground school and when I found out about the concept I was PI$$ED and it pi$$es me off that I have seen CFI's and 135 guys who 2 to 3 times the number of hours as these academy pukes plus college degrees yet their resumes dont even get a second glance by regional HR dept's and usually wind up in the circular file. Meanwhile little 19 year old $hit head who bearly got a GED and has 250 hours gets hired. Yes I am on the younger side hell I was 22 almost 23 when I started flying 121 but no I am not an academy puke and although I didn't have an ATP when I was hired I did go and get it once I turned 23.... As for my education yes I do have a Bachelors degree and am currently about a third of the way through my Masters and No my degrees are not in Aviation. As for thinking that flying RJ's is a real job and thinking the CRJ is great. No that is not the case either. This place I am at is strictly a steping stone till I can get to the next place.... Yes I know people do not like regional guys but please tell me where the FUK else I can get the jet time I need to move on... My simple point in all this was the payscale at FOCUS AIR SUCKS and I don't think it right that people are flying an airplane that almost 17 times the size of a CRJ 200 for not that much more pay and btw to my understanding Focus Air has its own academy type deal with ERAU. Doesnt it? So what's that? Just more SJS as far as I can tell. No time just out of Riddle pilots flying 747's for no pay. That's just brilliant. Finally as for me being "whats wrong with this industy" I hardly think that's the case since I'm just a young guy who's trying to work hard and make his way up in the world. No I am not happy with what I get paid but there again I am trying to get my time pay my dues and move up that is all.

Wow, 22 almost 23, that must have been a ton of bulls#$t in those six months between flight school and when you made it into the big time at a 121 outfit. Looks to me like the payscales at Focus aren't much different than what I was making at my previous legacy dream airline as an 8 year FO. Good luck trying to land one of the three jobs that even remotely resemble what we thought we were getting into when we started flying.

Well it was more than six months that I CFI'd since I started working as an instructor just after I turned 20. DId help provide a little extra scratch while I was in college though...

I don't even know what to title this........
 

Spacemonkey: Yeah, this thread is still alive. It may not be as active or as popular as the NWA threads or the regional threads, but there are people who try and make a living at these supplementals, so when they get judged for "keeping the bar low" they take offese to it. As do I.

You very first post says: "dont do it". So, when we get furloughed and have a house to try and keep and families to feed and wait for a bite on one of our many many applications to the UPS's, Fedex's, SWA or whoever, are we supposed to turn down a lesser job, that may have other attributes other than industry leading pay? Perhaps unemployment won't cut it, perhaps we aren't willing to go to Lowe's and prefer to just stay current and keep flying. There are some, incredibly that don't want to go to a Jetblue or a SWA, ever think of that? I'll volunteer, I don't really care to go to SWA, and those are my personal reasons, and no I've not been turned down, I haven't even applied. Don't get me wrong they are a great company, successful but just not for me, as I would like to do other than fly a 737 for multiple legs a day for the rest of my career, and I just don't care for the whole A,B,C thing....just my honest thoughts......But what are those that do want to go and aren't fortunate enough to get picked up or get turned down and have to wait a year before they reapply? Again perhaps those that want other than a SWA or a legacy, have other than leading pay as their top priority.

I may have overstepped myself when saying that you are what is wrong with this industry, as I was more specifically speaking about a pervasive mentality that is coming out more and more. (not saying you have it). Ok, so you are not a ERAU pvt to atp in 1 month, and I applaud your efforts at your own struggle to climb the ladder. I guess it is also nice to know and be able to cite nice things like the Mcnary Waitress Act of 1930, or the railway labor act, or give us your dissertation of: "if the regionals needed to be mainline aircraft then the unions should have negotiated pay rates all the way down to 1900's and metros back in the day to keep the regionals from coming into existence". ....You would get an A+ in air transportation class for that one!

Unfortunately, this is not class and this is reality. What you are saying in principle is right, but it is a bit more complicated than that. History does repeat itself, but the industry is ever-changing just like the weather, and I really don't think that any text book could keep up with what happens out on the line. Tell me how could any of the furloughed USAirways pilots who are now ****ed through the whole jets for jobs and are stapled at the back end of republic's seniority list could have ever forseen the steps that came about that spelled out their screwed up position? How could any MEC negotiate this sort of contigency in advance, and how can they negotiate their positions after a judge shreds their efforts up in chapter 11? What would your text book say about the possibilities of RJ's taking over mainline flying and Embraer or Bombardier coming up with successful replacements for the smaller Dc-9's or 737's? Did the textbooks back in the day forsee how a lorenzo could use a loop hole in bankruptcy laws to shred contracts at will? I bet there is no mention of new legislature put in place that says you actually have to be bankrupt to declare it (lorenzo clause) in your texts nor do they cover it. the point is, when you make statements like the above, you show your naiviness (spelling)?......again....not so easy in the real world.......
but you are smarter than what people give ya credit for......book smarts is not real world smarts neccesarily, and when younguns start out they should observe 90% more with NO judgements and they will soon benefit from other people's experiences and mistakes as well as from airline history being played out in real time outside of textbooks .

Now, I don't have a problem with those that are tremendously fortunate and get hired with little time because i know they have a cross to carry which is the ire of mostly everyone in the industry that says they dont deserve it. So to those that are lucky AND WORK INCREDIBLY HARD, KEEP THEIR TRAPS SHUT, LISTEN AND DO THEIR PART WITH HUMILITY...i have no problem with that, it's just those that come in on a high horse that i want to kill!!! lol

Now, above you stated that your job is a stepping stone, and that people dont like RJ guys, and where the fuk could you get the jet time you need to get elsewhere. 1st off im sure there are people who are perfectly content with being at the top of their scales, they probably took out the 1st jets and are sitting pretty right about now....that is awesome.....which brings me to my second point....there is no shame in being an RJ pilot, and anyone who comes down on you for being one or doesn't like you because you are an RJ guy can go and kiss your arse! I bet they gladly commute on you to get to work, and you guys work hard for peanuts as well, **** flying turboprops up and down the NYC area or RJ's through chicago all days long to me is tougher than flying my 737 across the country, so you have my admiration for doing that everyday!

Your point about Focus Air's low payscale was also given with judgement and it's the second part that people take offense to. I dont think it's right that focus takes erau grads and puts them into the FE seat, that is bs as well!
Im sure with more time in the industry we will all bear witness to more bs, and it is our collective and singular abilities to adapt and still fly while making a at least a decent living and being with our loved ones that will always be the challenge, not keeping the bar low.


This now brings me to.....BURFLYER.........

You stated that you wanted to see what a 70K a year scumbag 747 pilot looks like!!!!

Well, I would bet a year's salary that you would never dare say anything like that to that person's face! That is a fact! Another one is that regardless of what you fly or where or how old you are, you are the scum among gentlemen that prefers to operate without dignity or respect for yourself, others and this profession.

Another sentence of yours says: have some dignity, those those trying to better the company, how about you quit and go to a place that's already acceptable!!!!!

Again, you are a spineless, shameless, freeloader that even parasites or leeches would be ashamed of. As I stated above, no matter where you work at, there was a time when even that place sucked bad! If you work for any major, regional or fractional, I dare you to say that you wouldn't be there if things got bad, or would have stayed when things weren't acceptable,.....see what kind of response you get. C'mon be a man do it!
I know this is just a nameless board, where people can just chime in with whatever they want, its not a serious conveyance of where real change takes place or anything like that. But i will get on here and say that you are the type to come to the USA after WWII and thumb your nose down at the rest of the world while hiding behind the fact that you dodged the draft and hung out in south america while this was all going on, in short you are not a man, you are nothing.

Where you see a scumbag 70K a year 747 guy, you see anyone or everyone past, present and future that works hard to make things better, that sacrifices without pay or recognition sometimes so that those that come after can benefit from their efforts and so that those so called "places that are acceptable....exist".....

cac737

Just for the record^^
 

You guys will love this, but for the record, the Cadets at Focus Air aren't even ERAU graduates! It's (was) a program started (now cancelled) by ERAU, but it was open to anyone from any school with a Bachelors Degree. Get Mom & Pop to pay 70K and WHAM! You get a CFI, some hours in a 757 sim, then the FE seat on a 74 for the promise of 1 year later you'll be sittin in the window seat of the whale. If that don't rattle some cages, I don't know what will.

And just to piggyback on what CAC said to Burflyer, if burflyer wants to know what 70K a year scumbag 747 pilot looks like, just walk into any Airport terminal, and look for the guy wearing the uniform with shoulder boards, wings on his left breast pocket and who looks like he's been around a while. That is what a 70k a year 747 pilot looks like. End of story.

Focus Cadet Program
 

Cadet program is terminated at Focus. There are 4 who are in the middle of a lengthy OE and they can not go on from that. All the ones who have not started flying are done.

Congrats, man. You're paying your dues and getting a great experience. You'll go far, and you will get a job flying a big jet.

CAC737 well said...

I just have to give that a big AMEN!

Plus, with cargo on track to quadruple in the next 20 years, I somehow don't think the future of ACMI's or any other cargo operations is in much jeopardy and I would bet that the pay scale will go up along with the demand for the work over time.

This thread cracks me up..

Why don't you guys all come over here, and throw sand at each other to solve this...

My point of veiw, time off is king, especially if it is in a "First-World country".. I had fun at the regionals, had fun at a low-cost, and now having fun kicking in the sand box and flying all over the world.. Most jobs in this business, assuming they are safe, can be made descent with a descent attitude and a dismissal of the grass is always greener, mine's bigger then yours and my dad from AA can kick your UAL dad's ass syndrom..

Have fun, and enjoy every step... Sitting in a 1900, all I wanted was to be in a jet.. Sitting in a jet, I wanted a bigger one, and then to be a Captain.. As a 737 domestic Capt, I wanted International.. Now I look at a 1900 on the ramp from the window of the 777 and think, I bet that guys having fun... It is all relative, and like age, we seem to come full circle in our flying careers too..

cheers
EKBC

Well Said DC8,

Long Live Sticky Fingers Too !!!!

/s/ Bottom Feeder 747 Capt

FWIW:

The other day in ANC a Cargo 360 CPT said they are on the cusp of buying the Focus 747's. Nothing quite like non-sched takeover rumors. Except for big operator rumors.;)

If the other option is to fly with a regional carrier with mostly prima donnas doing 8 legs a day making 19 bucks/hour with layover in places like Texarkana, then yes, it's a great deal!!

Nicely put Birdcage. Couldn't agree more. When i was flying into Hawaii I always wished I was a 737 pilot for Aloha flying the visual into Kaui or something.

As for the rumor from Cargo 360... I am laughing hard at that one.

I wanted to apologize Dutch. I did not mean to jump all over you about 360. I just get a little fed up when certain individuals proclaim what a wonderful deal they have and really when it boils down to it, it is rather sub par. It also puts pressure on the pilot groups at other ACMI carriers, when certain individuals are willing to accept working conditions that are not the norm and yet again lower the bar still further.

$87K as a new hire 747 Capt vs going back to my old, commuter days when I made 15K as a new hire F/O on the Shorts 330....

My regards to anyone that's still flying the Winnebaggo.

Why on Earth would Cargo 360 want to buy Focus's 747s...unless they plan on opening up a maint repair station.

You didn't hear? they are also buying Gemini......and (insert ACMI company)

No apology necessary. I actually agree with you 100%. Keep soundin off about this because it seems like a lot of people don't get it.