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Originally Posted by MaxKts
(Post 1374544)
Yeah but! Didn't we agree the 757 would be a NB to get those awesome A380 rates that have paid so well????? :eek:
All I know is that the 2006 Had NB rates, WB rates and a new A-380 Rate. We didn't have any A380's but had them on Firm Order (a limp term) We didn't have any 737's or 757's on order but the language was cleverly hidden as NB's in the last sentence of Section 26K. |
It is usually the last sentence of any section that is the most important one.
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Who ever thought that the 727 replacement would be anything other than NB pay?
:confused: |
Originally Posted by TheBaron
(Post 1374576)
Who ever thought that the 727 replacement would be anything other than NB pay?
:confused: |
Originally Posted by MaxKts
(Post 1374587)
So - if the company decided to pass on the 75 and replace the 72 with the 76 - you wouldn't have a problem with it paying NB?
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Originally Posted by MaydayMark
(Post 1374545)
Now that's not fair ... DW & BC guaranteed me that the 777 would pay A380 rates!*? :eek:
If he even tries to say it was unforeseen, Raise the BS flag. Carriers have been using the 757/767 common type for a long time. |
Originally Posted by MaydayMark
(Post 1374598)
Max ... I think you're 'putting the cart before the horse.' We agreed that the 757 would be NB pay in the last contract TA. The 767 is a "new animal" on the property and our CBA says it will be negotiated.
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Originally Posted by TheBaron
(Post 1374533)
And I still disagree on the idea of monthly little excess bids. If it were that easy we would have had an excess bid in the fall with training starting in January to push some of the excess WB crews down to the 757. Instead the company has been buying up lines for 4 months now. I just don't see it happening. The company isn't some mysterious evil empire out to crush the pilot group, regardless of what some may think.
There would be no additional training required moving guys back and forth every 6 months seeing they would already be flying the 75 and 76. Just a thought... |
Originally Posted by MaxKts
(Post 1374587)
So - if the company decided to pass on the 75 and replace the 72 with the 76 - you wouldn't have a problem with it paying NB?
:cool: |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1374660)
Looking ahead, once the 767 IS on property and the company gives the small excess bid theory a try (think 4A2B implementation/tough economic times), do you think there would be a scramble by all the senior guys to a 'protected' seat in something other than the 75/76?
There would be no additional training required moving guys back and forth every 6 months seeing they would already be flying the 75 and 76. Just a thought... |
Originally Posted by TheBaron
(Post 1374696)
Except that a displaced 767 pilot may choose to bid the 777, MD, or Bus. He doesn't have to take the 757 unless that's all he can hold.
Not trying to turn this into a senior vs junior discussion btw... In addition, imagine being a reserve line holder and having to cover flying for 2 airframes. |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1374704)
Completely agree this would happen initially. After the first or second excess the 777/MD/BUS would become VERY senior and 'push' the junior guys down to the 767. That's why I would call the 777/MD/BUS seats a 'protected' seat for the very senior guys.
Not trying to turn this into a senior vs junior discussion btw... In addition, imagine being a reserve line holder and having to cover flying for 2 airframes. |
[QUOTE=DiamondZ;1374704
In addition, imagine being a reserve line holder and having to cover flying for 2 airframes.[/QUOTE] You Mean like a Reserve MD-10/MD-11 Pilot? There are more differences to these 2 aircraft than the 75/76 |
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
(Post 1374725)
You Mean like a Reserve MD-10/MD-11 Pilot?
There are more differences to these 2 aircraft than the 75/76 |
Is it not better to have these two planes in a single bid pack? That way they cant jack with the manning to their advantage, and we all know they will.
The more planes the cleaner bid pack. The MD10/11 still has the nicest cleanest bid pack in the co., even if it has lost some intl. flying. |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1374775)
Im not talking literal differences. Im talking about covering trips for 2 separate bid packs. Think MD covering MD and 72 flying.
Left the 11MEM last summer but as a junior reserve guy I was mostly getting domestic but sprinkled in there just enough to be dangerous was the Europe/Asia trip. Might as well have been 2 separate bid packs. |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1374775)
Im not talking literal differences. Im talking about covering trips for 2 separate bid packs. Think MD covering MD and 72 flying.
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Originally Posted by Pakagecheck
(Post 1374806)
Guess I'm confused, Mem-Ord... What's the difference if its in a separate bid back? Gotta agree with MeXC, I think covering both domestic and international would be tougher.
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Originally Posted by appDude
(Post 1374871)
UPS flies their 300Fs 8 hours plus, no crew rest facility, just 3 guys jammed in that lovely cockpit. Who says our 767s will not go international?
I'm just saying that the idea of covering 2 different kinds of flying is nothing new to FedEx. |
Originally Posted by appDude
(Post 1374871)
UPS flies their 300Fs 8 hours plus, no crew rest facility, just 3 guys jammed in that lovely cockpit. Who says our 767s will not go international?
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Just wondring how our LOA compares to how other airlines who have operated the 757/767 for years? FYI in 1989 just after the FTL merger the 6 DC-8-73's were paid as NB pay but then we just had the FCH (Flightcrew Handbook) which was easily ammended, rip out the old page and add the new one!
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Originally Posted by MeXC
(Post 1374934)
I'm just saying that the idea of covering 2 different kinds of flying is nothing new to FedEx.
Typically during a RP the reserve NB pilot is 'covering' X number of NB trips each period. A reserve WB pilot is covering Y number of WB trips for his specific airframe each period. With a combined reserve pool now both pilots will be covering X+Y number of trips. Lots of efficiencies gained by the company with a combined reserve pool. |
Here's another topic for discussion...
B.4.c. For purposes of draft assignment as provided in Section 25.O., the B767 and B757 pilots shall be considered a single pool of available pilots. You are a 76 CA/FO...how many times will you be called for a 76 DRF trip knowing CRS will start with the most junior pilot, most likely a 75 CA/FO, in the single pool? One would think it would be reasonable if its a 76 trip it should be offered to the most junior 76 CA/FO first... Not wearing a tin hat, looking for black helicopters, etc....just some open dialogue. 25.O. Draft (DRF) 1. CRS shall offer a DRF assignment in reverse seniority order to pilots who are legal and available for that assignment |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375107)
You are a 76 CA/FO...how many times will you be called for a 76 DRF
trip knowing CRS will start with the most junior pilot, most likely a 75 CA/FO, in the single pool? One would think it would be reasonable if its a 76 trip it should be offered to the most junior 76 CA/FO first... Not wearing a tin hat, looking for black helicopters, etc....just some open dialogue. 25.O. Draft (DRF) 1. CRS shall offer a DRF assignment in reverse seniority order to pilots who are legal and available for that assignment If the 75 guy flys it he gets paid WB. If the 76 guy flys it he gets paid WB. I may be missing something, but... |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375107)
Here's another topic for discussion...
B.4.c. For purposes of draft assignment as provided in Section 25.O., the B767 and B757 pilots shall be considered a single pool of available pilots. You are a 76 CA/FO...how many times will you be called for a 76 DRF trip knowing CRS will start with the most junior pilot, most likely a 75 CA/FO, in the single pool? One would think it would be reasonable if its a 76 trip it should be offered to the most junior 76 CA/FO first... Not wearing a tin hat, looking for black helicopters, etc....just some open dialogue. 25.O. Draft (DRF) 1. CRS shall offer a DRF assignment in reverse seniority order to pilots who are legal and available for that assignment "The first pilot offered a DRF assignment shall be the next pilot senior to the last pilot who accepted a DRF assignment." The list goes via inverse seniority but does not start over at the bottom each time. Other than being a larger list, chances are contractually the same as any other crew seat. |
Originally Posted by ANCFRTDG
(Post 1374969)
Just wondring how our LOA compares to how other airlines who have operated the 757/767 for years? FYI in 1989 just after the FTL merger the 6 DC-8-73's were paid as NB pay but then we just had the FCH (Flightcrew Handbook) which was easily ammended, rip out the old page and add the new one!
Most airlines that operate both have either the same rate or one that is marginally higher for the 767 and not a 30 plus dollar difference that we have NB-WB. Usually for airlines that have a difference pay for non flying events is based on a blended rate of the 2. They typically have the ability to fly both types and various models but the Company's also typically do not mix flying within a pairing and lines if they still have lines that is. PBS systems typically see the 767 flying taken at the higher seniority levels obviously due to pay and type of flying etc. A quick scan of APC airline data for UAL, DL and AA will give you a pretty quick idea. |
Originally Posted by 4A2B
(Post 1375140)
The list goes via inverse seniority but does not start over at the bottom each time. Other than being a larger list, chances are contractually the same as any other crew seat.
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Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375182)
Not sure I understand the point of this statement?
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If a 76 trip is available for draft, the choice to accept/refuse that trip, normally, would first go to the most junior pilot holding the 76. With the LOA single pool concept, this is definitely not the case. The choice will go to the most junior pilot holding either 76 or 75, most likely a 75 pilot.
Does this still maintain the seniority rights of the most junior holding 76 pilot? With a separate pool, the junior 76 pilot would most definitely get first choice per 25.O. |
I knew I was missing something...
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Originally Posted by MeXC
(Post 1375128)
Wouldn't the pay be the same for either the 76 CA/FO or the 75 CA/FO?
If the 75 guy flys it he gets paid WB. If the 76 guy flys it he gets paid WB. I may be missing something, but... ie. 12 yr 76 CA - 12 yr 75 CA ($239.02 / $239.02) It starts to vary or turn into cost savings as year group changes... ie. 5 yr 76 FO - 2 yr 75 FO ($145.54 / $139.69) There's a real big savings if the company can get a 1yr 75 guy in the right seat over a 4th or 5th year 76 FO. ie. 4yr 76 FO - 1yr 75 FO ($142.68 / $61.57) |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375232)
If a 76 trip is available for draft, the choice to accept/refuse that trip, normally, would first go to the most junior pilot holding the 76. With the LOA single pool concept, this is definitely not the case. The choice will go to the most junior pilot holding either 76 or 75, most likely a 75 pilot.
Does this still maintain the seniority rights of the most junior holding 76 pilot? With a separate pool, the junior 76 pilot would most definitely get first choice per 25.O. |
25.O.2. The first pilot offered a DRF assignment shall be the next pilot senior to the last pilot who accepted a DRF assignment.
So 76 FO Trip 123 is available for DRF. CRS calls the most junior of the single pool of 76/75 FO...more than likely a 75 FO. The first person, very bottom 75 FO, called, passes. The second person, 2nd from bottom 75 FO, called, accepts. Now 76 FO Trip 124 opens up for DRF same day. CRS will call the 3rd from the bottom of 75FO, the next senior pilot to the last pilot who accepted. Two 76 FO trips that the most junior 76 FO will never have a chance at. The example above is based on a 'reasonable assumption' that the most junior 76 FO (WB) has more seniority than the bottom 3 FO's (NB). Although he is bottom of the 76 list, it does not guarantee he will be the first called for a 76 WB draft trip, instead a junior, NB holding pilot will get first chance. There are savings to the company doing it this way. I think an easy fix would be to change B.4.c. so it states something to the effect 'a 76 DRF trip will first be offered to the most junior pilot holding the required 76 seat. If no one chooses to fly the trip CRS can then go to the most junior 75 pilot in the required seat per 25.O. |
..................
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Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375330)
25.O.2. The first pilot offered a DRF assignment shall be the next pilot senior to the last pilot who accepted a DRF assignment.
So 76 FO Trip 123 is available for DRF. CRS calls the most junior of the single pool of 76/75 FO...more than likely a 75 FO. The first person, very bottom 75 FO, called, passes. The second person, 2nd from bottom 75 FO, called, accepts. Now 76 FO Trip 124 opens up for DRF same day. CRS will call the 3rd from the bottom of 75FO, the next senior pilot to the last pilot who accepted. Also, if the next trip to come up is a 75 and a 76 pilot accepts that one is also paid at 1 1/2 times WB! Two 76 FO trips that the most junior 76 FO will never have a chance at. The example above is based on a 'reasonable assumption' that the most junior 76 FO (WB) has more seniority than the bottom 3 FO's (NB). Although he is bottom of the 76 list, it does not guarantee he will be the first called for a 76 WB draft trip, instead a junior, NB holding pilot will get first chance. There are savings to the company doing it this way. I think an easy fix would be to change B.4.c. so it states something to the effect 'a 76 DRF trip will first be offered to the most junior pilot holding the required 76 seat. If no one chooses to fly the trip CRS can then go to the most junior 75 pilot in the required seat per 25.O. |
If you think that scheduling goes by that list once they are drafting, then you need to lay off of the crack pipe.
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Originally Posted by MaxKts
(Post 1375436)
Where are the savings???? The trip still is paid 1 1/2 times WB pay. Also, if the next trip open is a 75 trip and a 76 pilot accepts it, it is paid at WB draft!!
76 FO - Year 5 pay 75 FO - Year 2 pay Who gets paid more...a 5 yr guy or 2nd yr guy (yes they both will be paid at WB rates)? If the company gets the junior pilot, lower on the year group pay scale, they have just saved themselves a few dollars. |
Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375232)
If a 76 trip is available for draft, the choice to accept/refuse that trip, normally, would first go to the most junior pilot holding the 76. With the LOA single pool concept, this is definitely not the case. The choice will go to the most junior pilot holding either 76 or 75, most likely a 75 pilot.
Does this still maintain the seniority rights of the most junior holding 76 pilot? With a separate pool, the junior 76 pilot would most definitely get first choice per 25.O. |
I do think that DFT should respect the bidpack that the trip is from. Only after all available 767 pilots are offered a 767 trip, should it be offered to the 757 group. The same can be said that a 757 trip should only be offered to the 767 group after all of the 757 pilots turn it down. This is a zero cost fix before the LOA is signed that respects seniority.
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Originally Posted by DiamondZ
(Post 1375240)
From the company's view point the cost is the same, only if each are the same pay year group.
ie. 12 yr 76 CA - 12 yr 75 CA ($239.02 / $239.02) It starts to vary or turn into cost savings as year group changes... ie. 5 yr 76 FO - 2 yr 75 FO ($145.54 / $139.69) There's a real big savings if the company can get a 1yr 75 guy in the right seat over a 4th or 5th year 76 FO. ie. 4yr 76 FO - 1yr 75 FO ($142.68 / $61.57) :p |
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