pipe

I don't necessarily think there is an alternative that is realistically available to us. I just can't understand all the guys on here who see it as a good deal.

It's good for the company. Hopefully it is good enough for the company as a whole that it offsets our loss.

In my final analysis I think it's going to happen. I don't think this is the worst we could have gotten. It just gets fatiguing that this career is an endless merry-go-round of damage control.

Pipe

Gunter

Better than attainable alternatives is how I look at it. Would have been better if Mr. Smith had bought A330's.

Velcro Captain

I’m sorry, but the facts don’t support the notion that the 767 LOA is a B-scale pay concession. For the past several years in the 757 we’ve seen very junior captains in the bottom 5 or 10 get MD and Airbus captain seat awards. Very junior 757 F/Os likewise bid and get the 777. So if a 757 pilot wants WB pay, it’s been available and will likely continue to be with our 757 bottom-feeder seniority matching most WB bottom-feeder seniority except for 777 captains. The upcoming 767 bid will likely open more WB seats in the MD and bus for yet more of our most junior 757 pilots to go WB – if they want to. Yet more, we have new-hires in the 777 now. So again, if junior pilots want WB pay, it’s out there. You’ll be on the bottom of the WB seniority list forever, but that’s been the norm if you want the WB bucks. On the flip side, if a junior pilot wants to hang with the 757, the LOA gives them the opportunity to get 767 WB pay now and then. In contrast, 727 pilots, including some very senior ones have never been able to get WB pay except for being an LCA or flex. So when you consider our long 727 NB history, the 767 LOA is really a gain for the NB community as the 727s go away. Finally, yes, MD-10s and A310s are headed to the boneyard, which will reduce WB seats in contrast to the recent history I mention above. But LOA or not, the 757 will continue to gain lines from the A310, and that’s driven by the market and high cost/poor reliability of the A310, so it’s gonna happen no matter what. All things considered, our NC and MEC did a good job on the 767 LOA.

MaxKts

I don't think most see it as a "good deal"

They see it as "better than the alternative"

PeterGriffin

I think it's another case of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

pipe

It's a zero (or negative) sum game. It's not a gain for the NB community, it's a loss for the WB community. I'm an NB guy and am not excited about trading my upside for some extra crumbs now.

Again though, I think this was over before the first shot was fired.

Pipe

TheBaron

The 727 is/was the junior aircraft on the property and pays NB pay. Been that way for years. If you look at the seniority list, the top half of that "junior" plane has always been relatively senior. Some people just don't like the kind of flying the WB's do. I don't see that changing with the 757. The top 30-40% is always going to go somewhat senior, the bottom of the list will be the most junior...as it should normally be. Should the most junior pilots have an expectation of WB pay? Not really part of the argument. Problem would have been a non-issue if we had a single pay scale (WB) like UPS.

And I still disagree on the idea of monthly little excess bids. If it were that easy we would have had an excess bid in the fall with training starting in January to push some of the excess WB crews down to the 757. Instead the company has been buying up lines for 4 months now. I just don't see it happening. The company isn't some mysterious evil empire out to crush the pilot group, regardless of what some may think.

RedeyeAV8r

Anytime you park airframes, it is a loss for the pilot group.

It was a loss when we parked the Tiger 727's
It was a loss when we parked the DC-8.
It was a when we parked the 747.
It was a BIG loss when we parked the DC-10 (real bad timing)

The fact that all the 727 are being parked is a BIG loss that isn't going to be stopped, LOA or not, new CBA or not.

The Company's grand scheme of slowly parking MD-10's and A300/310's won't be stopped, with or without an LOA or CBA.

In 2006 we agreed that the 757 was a Narrow body, not some new Large NB category or WB category to make up for the loss of the S/O and extra 20K of freight weight.

Be glad this LOA says the 767 is a WB. Imagine if the majority replacement aircraft for MD10's and A300 were considered a NB or some new less than WB category.

Looking forward, Imagine this company with 2 fleet types: or more importantly 2 Bid Packs.
777's and 757/767's

Now imagine one Bid Pack is WB
and the other is NB.

MaxKts

Yeah but! Didn't we agree the 757 would be a NB to get those awesome A380 rates that have paid so well?????

MaydayMark

Now that's not fair ... DW & BC guaranteed me that the 777 would pay A380 rates!*?