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FDX - Offsite Training for Initial 767 Crews

Old 04-28-2013, 06:09 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by viperdriver View Post
If an airplane has some folks go offsite, how and when do they decide who goes? Is 777 training offsite possible, training lettter will be long.
In the past, ground school portion done in Memphis, Day 1 of ground school, the number trained off site was announced and volunteers asked. Done in seniority order.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:16 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by NightBusDriver View Post
Okay, FDXLAG, un-confuse me...
with an excess bid the training is assigned as follows:

BTR-SNR: BID TO RELIEVE (SENIOR)
BTR-JNR: BID TO RELIEVE (JUNIOR)
EXC-JNR: EXCESSED (JUNIOR)
EXC-SNR: EXCESSED (SENIOR)

So from this sampling of Practice Bid #2:

# SEN CURR PREV TYPE
1. 1065 57CM 27CM EXC
2. 1109 57CM 30CM BTR
3. 1144 57CM 30CM BTR
4. 2084 57CM 27CM EXC
5. 2302 57CM 11CM BTR
6. 2339 57CM 77FM BTR
7. 2377 57CM 27CM EXC
8. 2464 57CM 27CM EXC

Wouldn't the proper training order (by contract language and seniority) fall out like this...

#2-3-5-6-8-7-4-1

And if they simply "put the Bus/MD/Triple guys at the end" then they would be training out-of-order (e.g. 1-4-7-8-2-3-5-6, whatever) and passover pay would be paid to pilots 2&3 based on 4's activation, and to 5&6 based on 7. I know, small-scale sample but I hope it illustrates my point/question.

Of course I don't remember how the DC-10 End of Days played out way back when...but I'm sure someone can comment on how plenty of excessed guys and gals sat around (NOQ, but paid BLG) waiting for a class date. Right? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller....
I think there is speculation that the 13-04 will go after 13-03 especially if that enables them to train 727 guys first.

I think they have to train 13-03 relieve excess before excessed however.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:50 PM
  #13  
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They can train in any order they choose. If they must they will pay passover, but they will train in the most cost effective way they can. Trying to figure out when you will go to training relative to somebody coming out of the same seat and going to the same seat would be easy. The hard part is when you are coming out of different seats and going to the same seat. Ask the guys who got excessed out of ANC a few years ago. It depends more (I think) on which seat you go to rather than the seat you came out of.

In my opinion they will gladly pay passover for a few months to whoever they have to in order to train folks coming out of the 727 first, in order to avoid the DC-10 situation again. Just my opinion. Trying to guess the training letter fallout is almost impossible with the excess, much easier with a regular vacancy bid.

Good luck to all.

FJ
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:02 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Falconjet View Post
They can train in any order they choose. If they must they will pay passover, but they will train in the most cost effective way they can. Trying to figure out when you will go to training relative to somebody coming out of the same seat and going to the same seat would be easy. The hard part is when you are coming out of different seats and going to the same seat. Ask the guys who got excessed out of ANC a few years ago. It depends more (I think) on which seat you go to rather than the seat you came out of.

In my opinion they will gladly pay passover for a few months to whoever they have to in order to train folks coming out of the 727 first, in order to avoid the DC-10 situation again. Just my opinion. Trying to guess the training letter fallout is almost impossible with the excess, much easier with a regular vacancy bid.

Good luck to all.

FJ
Contract says all relieving excess go before all excessed. Are you saying that wont happen? Passover pay would not be applicable.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:07 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by NightBusDriver View Post
Okay, FDXLAG, un-confuse me...
with an excess bid the training is assigned as follows:

BTR-SNR: BID TO RELIEVE (SENIOR)
BTR-JNR: BID TO RELIEVE (JUNIOR)
EXC-JNR: EXCESSED (JUNIOR)
EXC-SNR: EXCESSED (SENIOR)

So from this sampling of Practice Bid #2:

# SEN CURR PREV TYPE
1. 1065 57CM 27CM EXC
2. 1109 57CM 30CM BTR
3. 1144 57CM 30CM BTR
4. 2084 57CM 27CM EXC
5. 2302 57CM 11CM BTR
6. 2339 57CM 77FM BTR
7. 2377 57CM 27CM EXC
8. 2464 57CM 27CM EXC

Wouldn't the proper training order (by contract language and seniority) fall out like this...

#2-3-5-6-8-7-4-1

And if they simply "put the Bus/MD/Triple guys at the end" then they would be training out-of-order (e.g. 1-4-7-8-2-3-5-6, whatever) and passover pay would be paid to pilots 2&3 based on 4's activation, and to 5&6 based on 7. I know, small-scale sample but I hope it illustrates my point/question.

Of course I don't remember how the DC-10 End of Days played out way back when...but I'm sure someone can comment on how plenty of excessed guys and gals sat around (NOQ, but paid BLG) waiting for a class date. Right? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller....
You kind of lost me why would pilots 2 and 3 get passover, they are leaving 30CM. If their training gets delayed they keep flying the bus and keep getting WB pay for their current equipment. Of your 8 pilots only the 77FM (pilot 6) could be eligible for passover.

As FJ said we have language that specifies training order, but we also have language that specifies the punishment for training out of order. And passover pay only works if going from NB to WB or FO to Capt. They only guys who would really have a right to b1tch are WB guys forced to NB seats to early and in my example that doesn't happen except for pilot 6 who could get Passover or could be trained in order.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:24 PM
  #16  
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Look at this from grievance settlement:

B. The "Best of All Possible Order" List
After the close of an applicable posting, pilots who received a crew position through either a vacancy bid, bid to relieve the excess, or involuntary excess shall be pooled together in the crew position to which they are going (the BAPO list).
1.
Pilots receiving a crew position through a bid to relieve or vacancy bid shall be pooled together and scheduled for training in seniority order (BAPO-l).
2.
Pilots who receive an involuntary excess shall be scheduled for training in inverse seniority order and after the pool described in no. 1 above (BAPO-2).
3.
The BAPO list shall remain fixed and not change by subsequent changes in the actual training letter.
C. Passover pay eligibility
Pilots who have received a crew position through an involuntary excess shall be considered as having received an "award" for the purposes of determining passover pay eligibility for pilots in the BAPO-l list under Section 24.D.2. and other passover pay provisions in Section 24.
D. OSCR eligibility
If it becomes necessary to schedule a pilot's training other than as published on the BAPO-2 list, the pilot shall be entitled to an OSCR as follows:
1. If a pilot is moving from a higher-paying crew position to a lower-paying crew position, the pilot shall be entitled to the higher paying crew position pay rate until the pilot's projected activation on the BAPO list.
Note: A pilot-initiated training swap (Section 24.0.6.) will not result in a longer period of entitlement to the higher paying crew position pay rate than that created by the Company-initiated rescheduling of the pilot's training.
2. If a pilot is moving from a crew position to another crew position with the same
rate of pay, the pilot shall earn 1.5 CH, in addition to all other compensation, for
each week in which the pilot's projected activation date on the first published
training letter precedes the pilot's BAPO projected activation date.
a. Any fluctuation after the first published training letter shall not decrease
the compensation calculation. The compensation calculation may increase
due to fluctuations in the training letter if the projected activation date is
pushed to an earlier date and such push was not directly due to:
i. that pilot's training swap; or
11. the filling of vacated training slots if the BAPO order is otherwise
maintained.
b. The compensation shall be paid in a lump sum within 90 days of the first
published training list.
c. Repayment ofOSCR under paragraph D.2. shall be limited to pilots who:
i. began training but did not complete training for the crew position in
which OSCR under paragraph D.2. was triggered, other than due to
involuntary excess, death, or retirement; or
11. received a voluntary award (including a vacancy award or bid to
relieve the excess award).

What happens if going to higher paying? Nothing?
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:35 PM
  #17  
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Still a little confused on how that grievance would effect pilots 2 & 3 in your example.

So tell me what costs the company more paying some guys moving from WB to NB pay in a WB seat longer or paying 727 guys to sit on their a$$ doing nothing? The grievence was a result of guys going from WB to NB early. In his case we have (mostly) WB guys going to NB payrate later as the company trains NB guy in the NB seat early. I don't see many losers.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:52 PM
  #18  
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Who trains first the pilots currently on the FEPP list or the new group of 25 on the excess bid? Anyone care to guess what the company will do?
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:55 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by FDXLAG View Post
Still a little confused on how that grievance would effect pilots 2 & 3 in your example.

So tell me what costs the company more paying some guys moving from WB to NB pay in a WB seat longer or paying 727 guys to sit on their a$$ doing nothing? The grievence was a result of guys going from WB to NB early. In his case we have (mostly) WB guys going to NB payrate later as the company trains NB guy in the NB seat early. I don't see many losers.
I would be the end of the 777 training letter with 6 months off, that is a big loss for me.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:58 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by viperdriver View Post
I would be the end of the 777 training letter with 6 months off, that is a big loss for me.
I guess we find out in a couple of weeks but what would you suggest the arbitrator award you for the company training and paying you for a higher seat out of order? I don't win or lose in this deal, just making a prediction based on past practice. I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by USMCFDX View Post
Who trains first the pilots currently on the FEPP list or the new group of 25 on the excess bid? Anyone care to guess what the company will do?
I think I am paraphrasing tony here but I don't think the FEPP list status has anything to do with the training letter.
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