Airline Pilot Central Forums - Union vs Non-Union

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Don't let your friends at PETA hear what you do to horses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1428814)

And of course unemployment in right to work states is generally lower.

Of course, OTJ accidents in right to work states is generally higher.

Researcher: Right-to-work laws endanger workers | The University Record Online

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cargo Man (Post 1428308)

Just looked the cargo section.
Almost all union airlines have people on furlough; almost all non-union airlines have no furloughs. Why?

By definition (in airline parlance), "furlough" is generally a contractual procedure to layoff in reverse seniority and recall in seniority order. Non union airlines don't usually "furlough", they can just "fire".

1,100 pilots at Atlas Air...and not one on furlough.

We have been hiring (almost) non-stop since April, 2010...stopped for a few months this year, and now have just started calling folks for a July 8th class. I don't know if hiring will continue later in the year or not, but for now we have only one class announced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroFDX (Post 1428482)

Unions are a necessary evil. And it all depends on how strong the reps are, current economy, strength of the membership, etc.

I don't think "evil" is a fair characterization. Trade & craft unions have been around for centuries. Unions in the US rose in the early part of the century as a counterbalance to the unbridled power of corporations as they rode roughshod over labor in pay and working conditions.

Only the power of a collective bargaining concept provided a modicum of a balance of power. There is a plethora of information on the history & why. If you look at how corporations were treating thier workers in the 1920's I would dare you to say a union was evil.

The taft hartley act reduced the power of unions, and their roles and memberships have diminshed significantly since then. Corporations and business are bit more discreet in how treat their employees now, federal & state laws provide some basic worker safety protection (e.g. ERISA- OSHA), but if you look at corporate profits, corporate balance sheets (lots of cash), compared to the average workers salary growth and compensation especially on the basis of worker productivity, the worker has had stagnant wages, and reduced benefits, all the while his productivity (benefiting the business) has gone up. i.e. he has not shared the benefits of his increased productivity. The attitude of many employers is don't like it-leave.

last year CAT had record profits, record low debt, high earnings, and order backlogs, but refused to give their workers a raise, and demanded that some take a 50% cut (CEO took 60% raise tho). Productivity was at an all time high as the compay streamlined increasing the workload with fewer workers. The guys had no recourse. Could a larger more effective union collectively bargained for a share of the profit that they helped create?? CAT must have thought so, because they outsourced much of their work and move plants to "right to work states", where they could have the don't like it- leave attitude.

In these right to work states, wages, rates of employer sponsored health plans, and pensions are all lower than the non right to work states. Unions & collective bargaining have some effect on garnering some of these benefits. Is this evil?

A unions purpose of collectivley bargaining to attempt to be fairly compensated for their efforts is hardly evil. If you look at many of the benefits that people take fro granted- medical, sick leave, 40 hour work week, paid vacation, pensions, many came from the efforts of early unions. Is that "evil"?

Unions are no more or less evil than unbridled capitalist that conduct unethical practices for their own aggrandizement at the expense of shareholders and/or employees.

I love this board. Have a little play on words and someone will chime in with a history lesson. :p

I had a ton of MEC experience in my past life, but thank you for the enlightenment.

Don't you all know all unions are bad?

Don't you all know ALL unions are bad?!?! I heard it on Fox "News", so its got to be fair, balanced, and true.. :p

Go to any crew room, FBO, airport lounge, etc. in the country and Fox News is on. You all aren't listening enough.... Unions are badddddd!!! Rush, Hannity, O'Reily, Fox and Friends... They'll tell you.. If you want to learn anything about how bad unions are, you all just need to watch more.

Corporations have had to negotiate terms and prices for everything from advertising to utilities since the beginning. Negotiating with a group that provides labor services should be no different. For some unknown reason a lot of individuals seem to think that it is their duty to be satisfied with whatever they are given by the organization and be happy with it. Apparently it is just fine if the guys at the top of the corporate food chain maximize their earnings, they are 'entrepreneurs'. But if you want more and are at the bottom of the food chain actually producing the good or service, you are just being greedy.

Other than the military, I have never worked at a full time job that was not collectively bargained and I know that I have made more money and had better benefits then my non-union counterparts elsewhere.

I have reread the thread. Have yet to see one anti-union post. Unlike Mem4ever I have had a non union, non military gig; try sales sometime. If you were willing to work your buttocks off you could make 4 or 5 times average and management loved paying you when you did. Know what, I like the union gig better.

My complaints with my union have been under 2 general categories. Its fascination with politicians who want to spend my 3% cola quicker than I do and it willingness to sell out QOL issues too easily for some members.

Private sector unions are the ultimate expression of capitalism, we pool our capital (labor) and use the power of the monopoly distort the labor market.

Public sector unions are a different matter, they are the ultimate expression of crony capitalism using regulatory and police powers of the state to reward friends and punish enemies.

That is all good and well, but when the Union Bosses decide to do differently from the desires of the rank and file, then you have issues ........... Of recent note here was the overwhelming desire of FedEx cargo pilots to NOT endorse the AGE 65 rule that was being proposed by Government and Industry, ALPA reps decided to go AGAINST what the rank and file wanted, and instead went with ALPA National recommendations ............... draw your own conclusions.
In this day and age, Unionism has shrunk to a much smaller representation of the work force. We can all talk about how bad it was back in the 20's and 30's but that has nothing to do with today's dynamic and different economy/work environments ........ the landscape has changed drastically, but this does not mean that Companies will not exploit their own workforces to their own benefit. There are many pros and cons to being Unionized ................. I will be the first to admit that I don't like paying Service Fees on the order of almost 2% of my income but then the alternative does not appeal to me either .........

I will be the first to admit that just one example of the alternative in our case would be having our retirement in a cash balance retirement rather than accruing a 2% multiplier. I would gladly trade 2% Dues for this alone, not too mention the other items protected by the fact that we are Collectively Bargained.