No concession ABX.
 

Vote no. We arlready have furlough protection. Do not undermine what we already have. They are bluffing. It's best for all.

What concessions are they asking for?

What furlough protections does ABX have?

ABX is an airline run with no reserves. They staff with junior manning. This works for management (fewest people on payroll) and it works for the people on property (big paychecks). The people that are screwed are the ones that are furloughed.

Now the union is going to help the company screw the furloughed guys again by allowing DUAL QUALIFIED captains! Fewer pilots needed and bigger paychecks!

Management threatened to furlough and the union took the bait! You think that kind of tactic might be used in the future?

The only silver lining in this is that it has to be voted on, and furloughed guys get to vote.

VOTE NO!
VOTE NO!
VOTE NO!

What do you mean by 'dual qualified'?

Right seat qualified.

In that respect, aren't all CAs dual qualified? All of our CAs are, at least. Or is this some plan for left seat qualified pilots, flying in the left seat and not flying as an RO, but paid as FOs?

This LOA is a bunch of BS. They tried the same crap last year. They are not going to go through with those furloughs. We need to vote no on this one!!!

No concessions.

At ABX, Captains can not fly in the right seat.

This tentative agreement upgrades five new Captains but establishes them as being dual-qualified for left or right seat. As the next five Captains retire, each retirement will convert the most senior remaining of these dual-qualified Captains back to a left-seat only Captain.

LOA Dual Qualified
 

The LOA upgrades five FOs to Captain and pays them as Captain even if they fly another seat. In addition we stop the furloughs, all for
the privilege of actually taking up to half of our vacation instead
of flying for the extra dollars. Maybe we should take all our vacation
and actually recall some of our fellow pilots. Just a thought, oh
and BTW ....Why do you want me to vote no?

Some people just don't get that part of it do they?

That's why I have never sold back one single day of vacation, answered my phone even once on a day off or bid OPF in 15 years here.

I'm not in this to build time and I can most certainly live a comfortable life on what I'm paid without sacrificing time away from kids that grow up and are gone all too fast.

I'm all for quality of life and time with my family. The more people we have, the better everyones quality of life.

I will do NOTHING that will help the company avoid recalling furloughs and hiring new pilots. NOTHING.

How many more recalls, upgrades and new hires do you think would be possible here if everyone would follow this protocol?

For the life of me, I don't understand why people would want to spend an extra four weeks around this place anyways. Get out and enjoy your time off.

Well said I agree 100%!

Waiting...

Who shall be the untouchable
Who shall be the untouchable caste

Waiting...

The next one may not be so poetic

Anger and resentment may derail the LOA and in fact affect the future of the whole company? Might ANY of that anger and resentment be in any way justified? Or is it entirely unfounded?
The details of the LOA were on a thread titled "My Apologies" directed at furloughees. If even that had any sentiment behind it, it might help. I think the furloughed pilots would like to know if the union intends to represent their interests in any way in upcoming negotiations. Or are we truly the untouchable caste?

I was furloughed out of that cesspool a few years ago and can only say that I wish it had happened many years sooner.

My point being, in the present hiring climate, having the ability to put as much distance as possible between yourself and the ABX management, furlough w. good severance is not necessarily a bad thing...

Vote no, vote no, vote no!!!!!

This LOA is troubling for a number of reasons.

Background:

All airline companies would like to have a very flexible workforce. You can't blame them. If management had their way, we would show up like day laborers outside the Home Depot looking for work every day and getting paid at the end of each day in cash. It's our Collective Bargaining Agreements (CBAs) that provide some protection and stability in our lives.

The APA1224/ABX CBA has some fairly good provisions for furloughed pilots. Pilot who get furloughed are given 30 days notice then receive full pay for another 45 days after their furlough begins. The company also has to pay the full health insurance premium for three months after the furlough begins. Compare these benefits to what your buddies at ATI get; 14 days notice, squeeze every minute of work out of them until the very last day then they're on their own.

These “benefits” for furloughed pilots at ABX also provide a deterrent to management just furloughing at a whim because there is a break even point before they even begin to experience cost savings. In addition to the extra 45 days of pay and three months of company paid health insurance, There is the natural reduction in productivity that happens when humans are told they are expendable. Increased sick calls, reduced focus on achieving performance goals, etc. The result is that management must carefully consider how long they expect the furloughs to last before they really go through with it. For example, if the company has an increase in demand that goes into effect 45 days after a furlough begins and they have to recall the pilots, they have just given away a month and a half of free wages and insurance.

Another, possibly unintentional, deterrent to furloughing on a whim is the fact that the pilots who get recalled will almost certainly not be the same pilots who were furloughed. This is because more senior pilots were locked into a two year commitment at ATI when ABX started recalling last time. Now, all of those senior furloughees are eligible to return to ABX. This creates a very effective deterrent because any pilot who gets recalled after another round of furloughs will have to be given lengthy and costly training. Again, compare this to the situation at ATI where management can and does furlough pilots then bring them back as the needs fluctuate without even having to get them requalified. Unfortunately, the bottom 20% of that seniority list at ATI is much closer to the day laborers at the Home Depot.

History:

We know there is always a lull after the first of the year.

Last year, in January, ABX announced they were going to furlough 20 pilots and explained that some of the furloughs could be mitigated if the pilot group agreed to some concessions. The Union tried to convince the pilot group that the concessions were necessary to “save those jobs.” It turned out concessions were not necessary. When the pilots indicated they were not going to fall for those negotiation tactics, the company started reducing the number of required furloughs then started extending the effective date. Eventually, the company just gave up and didn't furlough one pilot for even one day. They wanted to but they just couldn't afford it. The system worked!

The cost of concessions:

Every benefit or protection in the CBA comes at a cost. To get something, we have to give up something else. If we agree to the concessions, we will be giving away hard fought protections for nothing. We are getting ready to negotiate a new agreement this year, we shouldn't be giving away parts of the contract before we even begin.

If we give the company what they ask for, we are setting a negative precedent. If the managers are successful in taking something away by threatening to furlough pilots, that will just lead to more threatening to furlough pilots. If it works once, it'll work again. What will they demand in exchange for not furloughing pilots next January?

A perception of meddling where a Union shouldn't be meddling:

This is a very touchy subject that is difficult to discuss. Because there are some lower seniority pilots at the bottom end of the ABX active pilot list compared to more senior pilots currently on furloughed status, if the furlough does happen, the people who get furloughed will be moved down to the end of a fairly long recall list. Nobody wants to benefit at another person's expense. We all just want a fair system that treats everybody the same based on seniority. That means no engineering of the results by union leaders. But don't worry about that one because the company has as much of an interest in maintaining the status quo.

This is why it is very important for the Union to stay out of making decisions about who stays and who goes. It is a business decision for the company and managers to make.

The most shameful part:

Nobody wants to see these 12 guys get furloughed, but, there are WAY more than 12 pilots who have been waiting to get recalled for the last five years and nobody seems to have any concern for them. Instead of getting all worried during the annual January fake furlough then going back to greed as usual, why not work on a plan to assist ALL furloughed pilots.

What we need to do:

1. Stay calm and carry on.
2. Let the company worry about how to staff the airline. We really don't get a vote on that one anyway.
3. Quit pre-negotiating the contract. We're in the negotiation season. Let's not do knee jerk reactions that play into management's hand.

Did you listen the conference call this morning?

I hope you did and I hope you clearly comprehended what TJ had to say. Voting no is counterproductive to getting the long term furloughed guys back.

How so? The larger the pool of available guys will diminish the chances of the furloughed guys going back to work. It's simple math.
Or maybe there's something I don't know and I should.


.

I'll ask you the same question. Did you listen to T.J. explain it this morning. If not, I highly recommend you call him and get a personal.

It's the old forest for the trees analogy.

Yeah, I know the 90? guys are hurting and p****d off. But voting no does nothing to help. It can only hurt.

I think the basic argument was that giving the concessions will somehow help the company be able to go after new work. Of course, that is total BS. The company decides if they want to go after new work or not. They also decide who will get the new work.

I think a similar argument could be made about an endless list of possible concessions. For example, reducing captain pay rates could help the company be more competitive going after new work. Eliminating the business class of better international travel clause could help. Adding more work days per month could help. I don't see the union offering those solutions. I'm NOT suggesting they should do that. Only providing examples.

Why are they sacrificing the furloughed pilots to “help the company be more competitive?” Rhetorical question by the way.

I think voting no will help.

Please do not give the company a single staffing advantage of any type (this LOA, vacation buy-backs, open flying, etc) until every furloughed ABX pilot has had the opportunity to accept or decline a recall to ABX.

Very well said. Vote no!!!!

Hey guys. ATSG has plans they aren't telling us about.

Remember this statement from the West Atlantic AB press release “The agreement is expected to close on Jan 2, 2014....ATSG will disclose additional information about the investment in its year-end 10K filing.”? That year-end 10K will be released around the end of Feb or the beginning of March.

There are some big changes going on at ATI.

This LOA makes me feel like I'm playing a game of poker and I've been told I have to place my bet without looking at my cards but my friend across the table gets to see his cards.

Here's a suggestion for the negotiating team. Tell your buddies across the table the ballot for the LOA will close one week after the year-end 10K is released. In other words, “we're not placing our bet till we get to see our cards too.” If they say they can't wait that long to furlough, then tell them “do what you gotta do.”

Of the four elements in this LOA three are good for the group
No furlough, upgrades, actually taking time off which is the number one
complaint I hear constantly. Dual Qual is a concession however it requires
Captain pay and is eliminated in no more than ten months.
Vote as you see fit but I see this being well received out on the line

A furloughed pilot voting no on this seems to be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

If you think for one second that voting no will increase your chances of returning to work before the 7 years is up, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

I believe that if we vote this down, management will be in full face saving mode and will lock down ANY recalls until the 7 year mark is past. It doesn't matter how much they have to spend in JRM, they will never recall and admit they were wrong for furloughing.

On the other hand, if we upgrade the 5 guys and keep the other 7 employed, we give them the opportunity to go after new business, grow the company and recall. A win for all involved.

Any current Captain voting no on this will continue to see the JRM beatings as you get no relief with 5 new Captains.

Why do you think they want to have dual qualified Captains at ABX? It's so they can avoid having to recall First Officers.

Guys. Wake up. They will have to upgrade those 5 captains anyway. They can't furlough 12 First Officers. They don't have enough as it is. If a few greedy %$*($*s would quit bidding open time they would probably even have to recall a few.

If you guys think you have a say in what the company is going to do, YOU ARE WRONG! Just ask your buddies at ATI. You'll never find a more “management cooperative” group of pilots. ATI is getting ready to lose half their fleet. Every Captain they have is dual qualified.

Don't try to sell out your brothers for promises and lies. If you guys start to cave now, just think how much fun management is going to have with you during contract negotiations.

You simply don't understand the math here. It will in no way prevent the recall of even ONE person. TJ explained it very well on the conference call. If you did not hear it, then call him or tune in for tomorrow's call.

Fuzzy math.

Lies and deception.

So are you accusing TJ (and the entire negotiating committee for that matter) of lying and deceiving? What is the upside for them?

tic toc the sound of furlough clock ticking away if loa is approved. mgt will do what they want anyway.

Can't See It
 

I just can't see why anyone at any airline would be giving anything back. You all negotiated and paid for everything you currently have. I would not accept any erosion of pay, staffing or benefits.

Easy for me to say considering I am not at your company, but still!! Why give anything back?

By the way, was that business class on internation reposition?