UPS/FedEx
 

To the guys/gals that work for these two companies,
-on average, how many days a month are you flying?
-are the schedules/lines firm, or is it fairly easy to drop/add different lines?
-can a guy take more time off from work (non-military) than he has vacation? (not paid of coarse)


scenario: a guy has worked at a company for 20 years, and doesn't feel like flying 80 hours a month anymore, can he cut back to 40 hours a month and not get in trouble from the company, or is every guy required to fly a set schedule every month?


thanks, i'm sure a tad rediculous, just curious...

Away from home 10-14 days out of 28.
Easy to drop/add depending on seat manning.
Yes, depending on seat manning and not Nov/Dec.

Yes, depending on seat manning and not Nov/Dec. Guy with 20 years at Fedex has to work to afford all his vacation time.

Lag

UPS is not user friendly in this area. You can't drop and not get paid (I wish). If your line is less than guarantee and you want to pick up extra flying, you don't get paid for that portion of the extra that brings you up to guarantee.

You can do some trip trading with open time but you can't trade if it reduces your credit or duty days.

average month
 

Along the same lines of this thread. I have heard so many different ideas on what the schedule of a cargo pilot at UPS/Fedex may be. Having jumpseated several times with both companies I queried the pilots but the response was weak at best, they were busy of course. I am a family guy and was wondering how friendly are the schedules to family time. I know seniority and bidding are going to play a role, but perhaps a view of a schedule from a newbie up to a senior individual. Thanks for your help.

Fedex
 

Not sure I agree that FedEx is easy to drop trips when outside of Nov and DEC. Staffing has been tight, deliberately so, as long as Ive been here and even when it appears they have slack to let you drop, it's often refused. I don't think anyone could, on a regular basis, drop below min guanentee (66hrs) without CP approval, and than I'd expect a lecture on why you're here if you don't wish to fly. I'd look elsewhere for part time employment.
Regarding schs, from a middle seniority WB capts point of view, FedEx has possibly the greatest diversity of flying of schedules of any major airline flying, certainly on the MD-11/MD-10. Domestic or international, take your pick, good and bad in each. The bad are the hours, domestic, mostly nights, unless your senior, intl, night and days, longer layovers (good, more rest) but the time zone changes can pay havoc with sleep cycles and often have a negative affect upon (trying) to readjust when returning home.
As far as family time, if you live in domicile, QOL can be very good, especially if you bid reserve and are lucky enough not to get used much. If you live out of town other issues come into play, ie; bidding layovers in the city you live. Can be a GREAT DEAL, but at the cost of scheduling flexibility, equipment/seat choice and seat progression (remaining senior to hold particular lines) and diversity of your flying experience (same old flying from your home to hub month after month). Some guys like that or accept it as the price they pay to be home more, others find it to constraining/boring and do other things. If you intend to fly INTL and not live in domicile, you will be away from home, 2days mins (MEM to STN or VCP and return) up to 2 weeks (around the world). Still the same time off (more or less).

Don,

Damn fine response. Really. No kidding.

Say Hi to your sister for me.:D

Yes, very good info. Thanks for the response.:)

You can do some trip trading with open time but you can't trade if it reduces your credit or duty days.[/QUOTE]

not quite true. check the contract on trip trading.

The guys responses above are pretty much on the mark, except for one thing: Yes, you can drop trips to minimize your month, providing manning allows it. I do it pretty often. A few months ago I dropped a large trip and ended up with 36 CH for the month, and nobody batted an eye. Nor should they. Some months I fly a little extra, but others I minimize the time I'm gone in the name of "family awareness". In the end, I chalk it up to the work hard/play hard theory. It averages out, and seems to work just fine.

Not sure I would want to argue with Don or his Avatar, but between vacation and other scheduling tools a guy with 20 years at Fedex could probably manage to only work 40 hours a month. Maybe not every month but an awful lot of them. I am also not saying his ACP (or CPA) would approve. Not that there are many out there but I have seen some pretty senior Boeing Capts do some amazing scheduling. It is all lifestyle choices.

Lag

Have you ever asked? I was with some guys that said they had good luck with PLOA when they wanted to drop a trip. I never asked, I might not like the answer Easier to be sick

I've never asked but I've never heard of it done. I can see once in a while for an emergency, they might go for it. But just dropping every month cause you don't want to fly? Have you heard anyone doing that? I haven't.

Every month? No. The guys that I was flying with both said that they had success with it, I didn't ask how far they pushed it though. I'm looking at the bid package and wondering if it will be worth a try ;-)

It's in our (UPS) contract that you can drop trips.

Article 13 D 6 Although it says that you should have made "reasonable" effort to make up the time so it's not like you can just drop to get rid of hours. I have heard of it done but I was told that you kind of have to have an good repoire with scheduling. Sounds like calling in sick is easier.

Do you guys at UPS usually deal directly with crew scheduling, or is your system automated (read computer) enough to where you get reserve assignments, "call in" sick and well, pick up open time, etc, etc, all on a computer? At FedEx, our entire system is computerized and the beauty of it is that one really never has to "talk" with a crew scheduler. Well, almost never. So when we're "calling in sick", we just hit a few keys on the computer, rather than calling up scheduling and then faking a cough.;) We do the same when trying to change our line, by picking up an open time trip or dropping a trip. If we drop the trip, the hours are put in our "make up" bank, and then we can either make them up or not. Our choice.

A long used ploy here is that when someone is about to upgrade (s/o to f/o, narrowbody to widebody, or f/o to captain), they will drop some trips before training into the new seat. Then once they are activated in the new seat, they still have those hours to make up, now at the higher pay rate. Works well and lasts a long time. How's it work there?

Your computerized system is a dream. That's how it should be here. At UPS, you don't get your higher pay scale until your effective date or you are released to the line (I think). Since we can't really drop anyway, though, it's hard to answer your question.

As far as the higher pay is concerned, it's basically the same here. I didn't mean to infer that we got paid prior to finishing training for the new seat, we don't. Like you, the higher pay starts when one is "released to the line", I believe. It's just that we can bank hours from a lower paying seat and then work those hours at the higher pay rate.

Make up? What the hell is that?

In the last 2 months I've flown with 2 boeing types with over 700 hours in their makeup bank. One said he flew one week a month, the other not much more. Trip dropping can be very effective if they are fat in your seat. I have never had a problem dropping a trip if open time shows you can do it. If all else fails, go to one of those message boards and offer the trip to whomever wants it. If it's a decent trip, someone will take it off your hands for you.

For UPS.

Fly on average 14 to 16 days per 28 day period. If you are very senior you will fly 12 and have 16 off, not necessarily in long blocks.

As far as dropping trips. I have heard that some folks have been able to do it, but its far from the norm to get it approved. Its in the contract, but requires company approval. They would rather have you take Personal Leave (PLOA) which will affect your longelvitity immediatly, and your senoirity after only a short while.

Not sure what you mean about take more time off than VAC. You have to fly your line unless you take personal leave (PLOA) see the above effects of doing that. Basically, NO. However, if you want to use PLOA you simply tell the company that "its personal" amd they can do nothing but approve your request as per the contract.

Yes, you are required to fly your bid line every month, no matter how senior you are. Forget any extra time off unless you call in sick, or take personal leave (with big consequenses i.e. longevity and seniority on th PLOA option)

Nope, not ridiculous, rather good questions. We have very little flexibility at UPS wrt our schedules. They figure that if you are an employee, you will work according to their wishes (contract).....period. The company will never waive the contract in your benefit, only in theirs, and in that case it is known as a disregard for the contract and a grievance.

Now from the FWIW department in the world acording to Viktorbravo......

I would love to be able to nomally drop trips and forfeit the pay. If we could do that I figure I would just work every third month. I'm not being a smartass by saying that, but I live a very simple life where I dont need much money from UPS as I work at other sources. My ultimate goal is to be free of a paycheck from anyone other than myself. I may very well be a rare breed of the business in that respect. At SWA, I could do this trip drop thing as a normal way of life. Not sure about FDX. I cant blame the company for wanting me to work and not letting me drop trips though. Its just the way it is. Hey, if I hire a person, I want them to do the work of one employee so I dont have to hire an extra body just to do the work of one person. Hiring individuals costs money. I understand this. Although I think a little more flexibility would bring us up to industry standard. But, its all supply and demand and right now our professions are on the short end of the stick. However, for whatever reason, we did not negotiate this into our current contract.

Also bear in mind.....UPS, (the company) will not "normally" do you a favor or "help you out" at any time. They figure that's what the contract is for. If you didnt negotiate it, you didnt pay for it, and it aint gonna happen unless its in their favor. That's business, and this is a purely a bottom-line, business oriented company. You can lament how much that sucks and is unfair as long as you want, but thats the way it is here, period.

UPS is about business and the bottom line, and they treat all employees as such, simply costs of doing business. You can determine for yourself whether you want to work in that environment or not, but that's the way it is for better or worse as an employee. Not much love here, but then again, its business. No, the company doesnt hate you, but yes they will try to get everything they can from you if it means more money in their pocket, pure business. Sorry if I discouraged you but I am just trying to shed some light on the reality without being emotional about the situation. I cannot stess enough how UPS operates with clear black and white +/- business goals in mind.

UPS is like most any other gigantor corporation in the way they operate, thats life ladies and germs...............

Know a guy who a couple years ago, had a 1000 hours in his make-up bank. Said that was the equivalent of an extra year with his daughter. Depending on seat manning, you can drop trips into your make-up bank no sweat.

If you REALLY need a day off and the drop is denied multple times for "insufficient manning" your ACP can approve a Personal Emergency drop. Those hours can come out of your Vacation or Sick, or go into your Make-up bank. If you try to drop a trip multiple times then call in sick, expect a phone call.

On the other side of the coin, picking up extra flying at straight time, (If there are "Open Time" trips available) you can trip-trade ADD up to 12hrs a month and go into the hole up to 6hrs in your make-up bank. A negative balance in your makeup bank gets zero'd at the start of the month. So, a guy could goose his pay by 18hrs a month with a zero make-up balance.

If you live in domicile and bid domestic reserve you can plan on working about half of the 15 days of reserve every 28 day bid. The 727/DC-8 guys sometimes work only 3-4 days and the A300 crews work more.

I don't know anyone at UPS who has flown more than 400 hours in a year. Moving reserve days is usually not too hard as long as it's an even trade. The company won't let you trade weekdays for weekend days since we don;t fly much on the weekend.

We don't work nearly as much as the pax carrier pilots, but when we do work I think it takes more of a toll on your body since it is at night. Overall it's a great gig. I'm making well over 100K and am home nearly every night.

Viktorbravo wrote:

I would love to be able to nomally drop trips and forfeit the pay. If we could do that I figure I would just work every third month. I'm not being a smartass by saying that, but I live a very simple life where I dont need much money from UPS as I work at other sources. My ultimate goal is to be free of a paycheck from anyone other than myself. I may very well be a rare breed of the business in that respect. At SWA, I could do this trip drop thing as a normal way of life. Not sure about FDX. I cant blame the company for wanting me to work and not letting me drop trips though. Its just the way it is. Hey, if I hire a person, I want them to do the work of one employee so I dont have to hire an extra body just to do the work of one person. Hiring individuals costs money. I understand this. Although I think a little more flexibility would bring us up to industry standard. But, its all supply and demand and right now our professions are on the short end of the stick. However, for whatever reason, we did not negotiate this into our current contract.


Some insight from the "other" side:

Here at AWA we have a very flexible drop/pick-up system. I have dropped down to as low as 40 hours and picked-up as high as 99 hours. As someone else said, work hard, play hard !

BUT, BUT, BUT ... we pay dearly for our schedule flexibility with our bottom of the industry pay rates, among other things.

And furthermore, that schedule flexibility is based upon company staffing levels. Which means certain bases and seats have complete flexibility, while others have NONE. Our LAS base has been critically understaffed since it opened 2 years ago ... so their opinion of our system would be COMPLETELY different than mine.

Otherwise thanks for the informative post. One question, do you actually lose seniority while on PLOA ? I completely understand the longevity lose, but seniority seems odd ...

Later, CC

Ok, that's another difference. At FDX there's no difference between weekday and weekend but, moving r-days has gotten alot harder depending on your seat manning, if they're short in your seat expect your move request to be denied for "insufficent reserves."

I'm not 100% sure but I think it depends on the length of time you are on PLOA.

Hope this helps.

It's like any business out there; you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

business
 

Viktorbravo...

Would you expect anything less (or more) from any other airline? I have found that the people I deal with are very nice and helpful in doing their jobs; no, they won't break the rules but sometimes they will bend them for you. It's about treating people the way you want to be treated.

Ups is a business. They take a lot of time (too much time!) negotiating our contract. My pay has always been there on time (more reliably even than the military!) and with the exception of one incompetent scheduler (we all know who she is) everyone I deal with on a regular basis is pleasant and agreeable. I show up, do my job and go home happy. What is it you want from ups? Not sure you would be happy at any other airline with the expectations and disappointments you seem to have with ups.

JMO

Pilot7576

Me either. Even on the workhorse 757 I have flown 200 hours in 6 months.

Sounds like we have the same views at least when it comes to this. :)

Delete.....

I agree with you 100%. I was merely answering the queswtion and pointing out the pros and cons the way I see it and what I would like to be able to do in a perfect world with a perfect contract, but thats never going to happen, anywhere. When folks say this or that sucks, or is unfair I understand the frustration with having little schedule flexibility, but thats what we negotiated and signed up for. If I was unhappy working for UPS I would quit right now. One thing I realize about myself is that I would much rather be independent from drawing a paycheck and I am working with that in mind. When I get to the point where money is working for me so I dont have to put out extra effort drawing a paycheck I will evaluate whether or not my time spent in service of UPS still profitable. I think you might be reading too much into my post wrt being happy or not happy with UPS. I guess if I was totally and completely happy with drawing a paycheck I would not be working to become independent from that source of income.

I view my job at UPS as a vehicle to realize a longer term goal of finanacial independence. Thats not a common view of our job, nevertheless its my view.