fr8rcaptain

I've been doing international, around the world, time zone changing, flip-flopping UPS schedules for 24 years now and this is how I cope:

1. Take care of yourself physically. Do a moderate hotel gym workout 5-6 days per week. I choose to run; minimal equipment to pack, and my muggle friends are always impressed with the runs I post on FB along the Danube River or through the back streets of Paris. I don't post the occasional run in downtown Cleveland.
2. Plan your rest. This means you might not go riding dune buggies in Dubai with the crew, but you choose to rest during your bodies natural rest cycle. No, I'm not a "slam-clicker," but we're talking long term survival here.
3. Sorry, but limit your alcohol consumption. Booze is one of the WORST when it comes to quality sleep (I say this while having a beer, or two, on my 34 hour layover, but I just finished an 8 hour nap that began at 10:30am body clock time).
4. I discovered I'm extremely sensitive to ambient light. Years ago I trained myself to sleep with high quality eye shades (Bucky -about $25 on Amazon). This saved my health, career and sanity. It takes several weeks or months to get used having something on your face when you lay down, but I no longer worry about the curtain light leaks when I go to sleep in Hong Kong at noon. This was the biggest game changer for me.
5. The ONLY time I use any drug is a prescription med on the first or second day when I get back home.
6. Continually remind your significant other that you really do love them, even though they get your VM at three in the afternoon (my wife still doesn't get it: I texted her at 10am her time that I just got into the hotel after a 12 hour duty and was going to sleep. She was annoyed when she called my cell four hours later and I told her I was still sleeping. Her response: it's 2 in the afternoon, are you going to sleep all day!?!).
7. Turn your cell off before going to sleep.

busdriver12

Okay, that one got me laughing, and the people around me thinking I'm a nut.

I use the word because that's how my doctor describes it, and that's the accurate term. For those who haven't been titrating themselves with booze since junior high, it means, "To titrate is to measure how much of a substance you have by measuring how much of the solution is required to achieve a given reaction."

Even us exhausted FedEx pilots can figure that one out. If you're that impressed with a two syllable word, I have a couple more in my vocabulary I can pull out.

MaxThrustPower

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

... there is very little that you wrote that contradicts with what I said. I do not dispute much of what you quoted.

I'm glad we agree! But ... that confuses me, as you specifically replied to me saying you were throwing out the B.S. flag on a portion of my original posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

... ... conflicting advice given by your sources, in particular--dosage ... 0.3-1mg ... up to 20mg and 40mg, respectively. A big difference there.

Exactly my point! My point is that dosage *IS* a key element, but even after many years and many different studies, there is still controversy over what a safe, appropriate dosage should be. If you would have taken time to visit the Mayo Clinic link, it mentioned about **60** different medical conditions which Melatonin has been tested as part of a treatment regimen!!! There is no mention of taking 20 to 40 mg for routine sleep disorders. My point was that the dosage is still somewhat of a mystery to even the scientific and medical community, and the consumer is left to sort all this out based on the dosage a manufacturer specifies and whatever advice he can glean from his physician or personal research.

However, from what I know about typical suggested dosage on Melatonin supplements, most of them suggest a higher dosage than the MIT study and other sources recommend -- the 0.3 mg to 1 mg range.

Consequently, the advice I was attempting to convey for anyone who had no experience with Melatonin was to be very careful and err on the low end of the dosage suggestions rather than the high end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

... Dr Oz and Huffington Post (such reliable sources) ...

Very cheap shot.

And extremely hypocritical, since you have been giving out all sorts of information without referencing ONE SINGLE REPUTABLE source, unless perhaps you have failed to tell us about your own personal scientific and medical training and subsequent research studies.

Even mainstream sources of information such as Dr. Oz can be reputable, since they will normally repeat the prevailing medical wisdom about a particular subject. However, I did send a link to the MIT study as well as the Mayo Clinic and National Sleep Foundation, which I believe to all be much more "reputable sources".

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

Of course you never take it when you have to fly soon, you need enough time to sleep.

Agreed. Thanks for that clarification.

busdriver12

I'll try to keep this bickering to a minimum, MaxThrustPower, so as not to bore the readers. I think the only actual advice I have given out is the instructions given by my doctor, on how to find the right dosage for each person. You're dying for a link, so here you go:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...74649129,d.cGU

But you should look at your own links.

The MIT study is dated 2001. The article that you quoted, "Talk About Sleep" has it's references dated 1996-2002.

The Mayo Clinic study itself, looks very good. The dosing in particular, is interesting. Melatonin is being used for everything from cancer and Alzheimers, to stomach disorders, exercise performance, and headache. The dosage they cite for sleep (general), doses of melatonin taken by mouth were 0.3-10 milligrams. NO timeframe.

Makes me wonder if the HuffPo and Dr Oz site misread the dosage recommendation to be 0.3-1.0 mg, instead of 0.3-10mg. And no, I don't consider them particularly reliable sources. Dr Oz is now under congressional investigation for his sketchy supplements, and HuffPo has a rather biased agenda.

MaxThrustPower

Oh, but why busdriver12? This is just getting good!

Seriously, I'm not trying to debate, but you seem to want to keep sparring with me. Ironically, I think we're on the same page -- for the MOST part -- regardless of our differences.

LMFAO .... This is hilarious!!! Oh this is just tooooo good.

You refute my sources and yet all you can produce is a link to a paper from "The Longevity Medical Clinic" which makes blind statements with ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCES LISTED! What is the scientific basis for this advice? Is it more recent and reputable than the MIT study?!? I seriously doubt there is any research, much less more recent.

But wait!!! It gets even better!!!

The Attending Physician at said Medical Clinic, Dr. Jerry Mixon, shows ENFORCEMENT ACTION against his Medical License by the Washington State Department of Health and his license status is "PROBATIONARY"!!! How absurd!!!

Here is the link to Washington State Department of Health.
Enter "Mixon, Jerry" in the search fields:
https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/provider...Criteria.aspx#

Longevity Medical Clinic:
http://www.longevitymedicalclinic.com/default.asp

If a scientific study is 13 years old, that does not necessarily make it out-of-date. What more recent evidence has been uncovered which refutes it and what further studies have been done to prove the new hypothesis? Your repeated pokes at the "age" of my references sounds like I'm quoting studies from the 1700's in an attempt to discredit me without actually proving anything to the contrary. They are not that old, and you have yet to show me any more recent scientific references which support a contrary opinion. Can you?

Wrong. You obviously didn't read the other pages on the Mayo Clinic Website about Melatonin. It states, "Melatonin is likely safe when taken by mouth in commonly studied doses for up to three months." [See: Melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine) - Drugs and Supplements - Mayo Clinic]

And I earlier conceded to you that the information I first re-posted on Melatonin referencing a "two week limit" was no longer the universal prevailing opinion, even though I personally believe that the conservative advice, of limiting the usage period shorter than the 2-3 month upper limit, is prudent given the controversy over Melatonin and the need for further research.

I stand by my statement, however, that no studies or reputable health care provider would prescribe using Melatonin supplements on a daily basis indefinitely. And if you can prove otherwise with the evidence, I'll be glad to eat crow. (Obviously from a source other than Dr. Mixon! lol)

As for the dosage of up to 10 mg, it's obvious when reading the laundry list of 60 conditions and the typical wording "has been taken" or "was taken" that this list was based on various clinical trials or recommended dosages from a variety of health care providers. Mayo Clinic apparently provides this as a general range of what the acceptable dosage guidelines MIGHT be for a given person or medical condition. And they don't try to explain what the RESULTS were of all those studies -- such as the effectiveness of the treatment or the side effects. My entire point in showing that list was that there is a tremendous disparity in what is considered an appropriate dosage, so the consumer needs to exercise caution and seek multiple sources of advice, not simply trust one doctor, website, or source.

As you would expect, the Terms and Conditions on the Mayo Clinic website (or most likely any website where you'll find medical advice) states that "Nothing in the content, products or services should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment... You should always talk to your health care provider for diagnosis and treatment."

No, they didn't misread the dosage. The MIT Study is the one which referenced the 0.03 to 1.0 mg dosage range initially.

Yes, Mayo Clinic does suggest the possibility of higher dosages, but they also tell you to consult your personal physician. So feel free to see Dr. Mixon, but I think I'll pass on that one. Best of wishes with the Longevity Medical Clinic and "Happy Titrating!"

(P.S. I like to do some Tit Rating ... but it has nothing to do with Melatonin.)

busdriver12

It is kind of funny how argumentative this is getting, since we basically agree about most of this. I didn't think I needed to post exhaustive links, including years of studies about how to determine one's proper dosage. Do I? The advice seems pretty basic, and makes sense about how to figure out how much you need. That's why I posted information about how to figure out your dosage in the first place. Most people do not know how much they need. They either take too little, which does nothing, or too much, which has side effects. Do you disagree with this?

As far as posting information on long term usage of melatonin, how can I? There have been no large, long term studies conducted. The first patent on it wasn't taken out until 1995, and I don't even know if it's been approved by the FDA yet. So how could anyone recommend it indefinitely? I think it matters that you are quoting a 13 year old study, when melatonin is very new to the market.

Your Mayo clinic study says: "Melatonin is likely safe when taken by mouth in commonly studied doses for up to three months, typically 1-20 milligrams. In children, melatonin is likely safe for long-term use in recommended doses."
So apparently children can use it long term, according to this selective sentence? You should realize that there are generalities all over that article, no doubt in order to cover their butts. But when they talk about the specific dosing for general sleep, they say 0.3-10mg.

As far as Dr Mixon, he is not my doctor, but I wish he was. His clinics specialize in enhancing quality of life and enhancing longevity. Some of what they do is controversial, and the government feels the need to be in control. My own GP, who just retired, didn't believe in bio-identical hormones, and thought that people needed to just accept that when they get older they will be weaker, fatter, sicker, and lose mental acuity. That's the common perspective. And if you work at FedEx, I guess you can feel comfortable dying at the average age of 64. But I hope to fight on and stay healthy as long as I can. And good sleep is everything.

The Walrus

You two need to take 50mg of melatonin and chill the f out.

busdriver12

According to the Mayo Clinic, the highest dosage of melatonin used is 40mg, and that is on the skin, for cancer. I'm sure HuffPo and Dr Oz would say that much would kill you.

However, I'm sure we can find hundreds of studies that support titrating yourself with 2-3 glasses of good red wine to help you chill the f out. Per your recommendation, I'm on my way!

MaxThrustPower

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

I didn't think I needed to post exhaustive links, including years of studies about how to determine one's proper dosage. Do I? .

You realize that I would never have asked you to if you hadn’t been so condescending about my own links which I had freely provided yet you failed to provide any substantiation of your own. If someone wants to rebut a posting made by someone online, I believe they should have something documentable to back it up from an authoritative source. After all, we weren’t talking about opinions at that point; we were passing along medical advice about the only hormonal supplement available without a prescription in the U.S and which is not even available over-the-counter in some other countries. Neither one of us is a doctor or scientist so we were quoting information from specialists and institutions whom had properly researched the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

Most people do not know how much they need. They either take too little, which does nothing, or too much, which has side effects. Do you disagree with this? .

I think this is exactly where you and I are both most in agreement yet ironically are most at odds.

Yes, dosage is very important. And I agree most people don’t know what dosage they need.

And I agree that taking too little or too much is easy to do, both with its’ own consequences.

I personally think it’s a shame that the consumer is left to “experiment” on his body and with his sleep to determine his appropriate dosage of a powerful hormone. We don’t routinely do that with other medications or supplements in this country unless it is under a doctor’s supervision and he is altering a dosage for a patient. And many people will not even attempt to determine their proper level; they read what is on the bottle or go to one website or doctor that tells them to take 3mg, 5mg … whatever. And that dosage is likely much more than they need yet they may fail to see what they are doing to their health or the quality of their sleep, particularly if they are overdosing.

I also think that the majority of the population doesn’t understand many facts about Melatonin, including that it is not a “sleeping pill” and that it is merely designed to work WITH your body’s natural sleep mechanism. They may also not be conscientious enough and aware enough of the side effects to determine if they are overdosing.

It’s a hormone. It’s powerful. I think we should use it very judiciously. Personally, I believe the suggested dosage from the MIT study (0.3 mg to 1 mg) should normally be sufficient for the majority of the population who is taking it for general sleep disorders. Going to 1.5 to 3 mg might be appropriate for a few people, depending on their tolerance. I think increasing the dosage to 10 to 20 mg nightly, as Dr. Mixon suggests, is a gross overdose for nearly everyone. And this is where I go back to my request for notations. What evidence shows that taking such high dosages is safe? What are the long-term effects? Has this even been studied?

Instead of using the mega-dosages of Melatonin, I think a much more safe alternative is using it in cautious moderation in combination with the other suggestions mentioned in this thread to get a good night’s sleep. And I have found that combining it with herbal supplements (primarily Valerian Root), is effective yet keeps from having to add a huge dose of Melatonin to my body.

I think natural sleep is the best and I try to sleep naturally for the majority of the time. So you won’t catch me using it for two or three months straight and I would never recommend that to anyone, even though I see it might be “safe”. Like you, I am getting a little older and don’t sleep as well as I used to years ago. Melatonin and Valerian Root help me to occasionally get a better night’s rest, but I don’t use them daily.

We are both trying to pass along to the others on this thread what we have learned and what we have experienced, and this is my experience with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by busdriver12

And good sleep is everything.

We definitely agree on that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Walrus

You two need to take 50mg of melatonin and chill the f out.

Okay, that’s it! I’m chillin’ …. Happy Zzzzz's everybody!

busdriver12

I apologize if I came across as condescending. I really didn't intend it that way. I realize that probably made you unnecessarily defensive, when actually I think most of your information is quite valid.