Extension in the field
#21
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Gunter's points are very well stated --- and very important
Especially, his very last sentence --- because this happens somewhat routinely (extension beyond operational limits) vs the uncommon extension in the field
The schedulers won't ask you to extend beyond operational limits or even mention that it's about to occur --- they'll just keep their mouths shut, and slip you the extra 3 hrs of FAA duty extension pay
You don't have to agree to it --- and you need not call in "fatigued" either, if you don't want to do it.
You don't need a reason or justification for your decision ---You have a choice!
The only time they can involuntarily extended you beyond operational limits is during an operational emergency
And then, safety still trumps all --- you can tell them you're "fatigued"
Fly Professionally - Fly Safely - Fly Well Rested!
Especially, his very last sentence --- because this happens somewhat routinely (extension beyond operational limits) vs the uncommon extension in the field
The schedulers won't ask you to extend beyond operational limits or even mention that it's about to occur --- they'll just keep their mouths shut, and slip you the extra 3 hrs of FAA duty extension pay
You don't have to agree to it --- and you need not call in "fatigued" either, if you don't want to do it.
You don't need a reason or justification for your decision ---You have a choice!
The only time they can involuntarily extended you beyond operational limits is during an operational emergency
And then, safety still trumps all --- you can tell them you're "fatigued"
Fly Professionally - Fly Safely - Fly Well Rested!
I don't have the ref handy (currently on my iPhone) but unfortunately your info above is wrong! I wish you weren't. That is the way it used to be but with the implementation of our 2006 contract this changed. Effectively, there is a statement that the Duty officer can extend you. The only way to to NOT do it is to call in fatigued. I will post the ref in a bit but the ops limits are now just a decision point.
Pakage
#22
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
12.C.5.b.i
12.C.5.b.ii
Basically, extenuating circumstances(not limited to- so any)a pilot can be extended up to far limits. It's the new norm. Pretty sure the Duty officer is the VPs designee. I don't like it but that is the way it is being used.
12.C.5.b.ii
Basically, extenuating circumstances(not limited to- so any)a pilot can be extended up to far limits. It's the new norm. Pretty sure the Duty officer is the VPs designee. I don't like it but that is the way it is being used.
#23
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
If the duty officer wants to extend you, ask what the extenuating circumstance is, if there are any concerns such as safety be sure and voice them. Although they are the VPs designee, I think most of the DOs seem to be very reasonable in the times I've had to deal with them.
Key is Know the contract
Sub vs Rat
Reserve parameters
Extention limits.
Fly safe, rested and smart
Key is Know the contract
Sub vs Rat
Reserve parameters
Extention limits.
Fly safe, rested and smart
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
DLax,
I don't have the ref handy (currently on my iPhone) but unfortunately your info above is wrong! I wish you weren't. That is the way it used to be but with the implementation of our 2006 contract this changed. Effectively, there is a statement that the Duty officer can extend you. The only way to to NOT do it is to call in fatigued. I will post the ref in a bit but the ops limits are now just a decision point.
Pakage
I don't have the ref handy (currently on my iPhone) but unfortunately your info above is wrong! I wish you weren't. That is the way it used to be but with the implementation of our 2006 contract this changed. Effectively, there is a statement that the Duty officer can extend you. The only way to to NOT do it is to call in fatigued. I will post the ref in a bit but the ops limits are now just a decision point.
Pakage
If the duty officer wants to extend you, ask what the extenuating circumstance is, if there are any concerns such as safety be sure and voice them. Although they are the VPs designee, I think most of the DOs seem to be very reasonable in the times I've had to deal with them.
Key is Know the contract
Sub vs Rat
Reserve parameters
Extention limits.
Fly safe, rested and smart
Key is Know the contract
Sub vs Rat
Reserve parameters
Extention limits.
Fly safe, rested and smart
#25
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Keep reading. You don't have to call in fatigued. If you say you don't want to go beyond operational extension, you just have to tell the DO why and he has to modify the pairing to keep you within the operational extension or release you to rest. I've done this in the last year.
Removed from the trip and placed in sick status...
You decide which one they are gonna use. Or can use.
Sure sounds like fatigue to me....
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
a. revises the pairing so that you don't exceed the operational extension or,
b. releases you to a legal rest.
The only time you are removed from the trip and placed in a sick status is after receiving a legal rest, you decide you need more rest. So after a minimum of 8 hours off you decide you are still to tired to operate, then you are removed from the remainder of the trip and the remaining hours of your trip are charged to your sick bank. Yes, that part does sound like fatigue, but that happens only after you are given a legal rest and you still can't go.
It's not semantics, it's what the contract says. I have done this and was NOT placed in sick. I was simply released to rest at the hotel.
#27
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
Are you even reading the contract? Based on his assessment the DO can either;
a. revises the pairing so that you don't exceed the operational extension or,
b. releases you to a legal rest.
The only time you are removed from the trip and placed in a sick status is after receiving a legal rest, you decide you need more rest. So after a minimum of 8 hours off you decide you are still to tired to operate, then you are removed from the remainder of the trip and the remaining hours of your trip are charged to your sick bank. Yes, that part does sound like fatigue, but that happens only after you are given a legal rest and you still can't go.
It's not semantics, it's what the contract says. I have done this and was NOT placed in sick. I was simply released to rest at the hotel.
a. revises the pairing so that you don't exceed the operational extension or,
b. releases you to a legal rest.
The only time you are removed from the trip and placed in a sick status is after receiving a legal rest, you decide you need more rest. So after a minimum of 8 hours off you decide you are still to tired to operate, then you are removed from the remainder of the trip and the remaining hours of your trip are charged to your sick bank. Yes, that part does sound like fatigue, but that happens only after you are given a legal rest and you still can't go.
It's not semantics, it's what the contract says. I have done this and was NOT placed in sick. I was simply released to rest at the hotel.
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case, the pilot’s schedule thereafter may be postponed until after the legal rest period is concluded. Should it be determined that the pilot requires more rest than the legal rest provided, the pilot may be removed from the balance of his trip and be placed in sick leave status. If the pilot is placed in sick leave status the pilot shall be automatically returned from sick leave at the conclusion of his trip.
See the "should it be determined" part? That isn't after you have rested or solely your determination.
You actually didn't do it, the DO allowed you to do it. It says MAY. He or she was (if you look at my previous post) being reasonable.... but they didn't have to.
"I would release you and give you legal rest but in my opinion from what you have told me, that will not be sufficient, so I am going to place you in sick status until the conclusion of the trip".
Trust me, I don't like this any more than you, but unfortunately it is what we have. I am glad that you were fortunate to have someone reasonable, but during the upcoming silly season, I would not count on it. Things are going to get crazy! A multitude of revisions, extensions and substitutions.
Everyone studies the de-ice procedures for the bad wx,but have never cracked the CBA. I HIGHLY recommend that everyone study it and discuss it with crew members on layovers, crashpad roommates, and contract admin to be ready at 4 am to make an educated decision on some important issues. So many of our crew members, sit back and say "feed me" the info. Trust me, the schedulers will take advantage of this. It's not their fault. They just want meat in the seat. It's our fault for being to F'n lazy to read one of our most important manuals. And, with all that said, check your duty time on every trip you fly, and if you think you may have gone over by even one minute, submit a pay log for it.
Pakage
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
The contract says;
(a) .................................................. or
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case..............
I read that as they have already provided you a legal rest, but you need more. We can agree to disagree on that.
I have had more than one DO agree with this.
I agree with you that we can't let others tell us what the contract says without reading it ourselves. That is why I am pointing out that our contract doesn't say the DO can extended you to 16 hours and you just have to accept it our call in fatigued as you seem to be saying.
Talk to the DO. Ask them to shorten the duty period or ask for a legal rest and take it from there.
#29
trip trading freak
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: MD-11
Posts: 673
The contract says;
(a) .................................................. or
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case..............
I read that as they have already provided you a legal rest, but you need more. We can agree to disagree on that.
I have had more than one DO agree with this.
I agree with you that we can't let others tell us what the contract says without reading it ourselves. That is why I am pointing out that our contract doesn't say the DO can extended you to 16 hours and you just have to accept it our call in fatigued as you seem to be saying.
Talk to the DO. Ask them to shorten the duty period or ask for a legal rest and take it from there.
(a) .................................................. or
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case..............
I read that as they have already provided you a legal rest, but you need more. We can agree to disagree on that.
I have had more than one DO agree with this.
I agree with you that we can't let others tell us what the contract says without reading it ourselves. That is why I am pointing out that our contract doesn't say the DO can extended you to 16 hours and you just have to accept it our call in fatigued as you seem to be saying.
Talk to the DO. Ask them to shorten the duty period or ask for a legal rest and take it from there.
The DOs are pilots too that interpret this but they are given consistent guidance from above. As I said, I believe most to be very reasonable and if used properly, could be an excellent advocate. When we deal with them with a contract issue, we should give them the reference from the CBA, i.e. 12.C.5.b.ii. It does two things, tells them you are actually looking at the contract and a reference to be your advocate as in your case..... Your'e right, I need to give you a legal rest first.
I appreciate the back and forth. Keeps me honest and in the CBA. Unfortunately I would say better than half wouldn't know which section to look in for this. Hopefully the union will shine some light on this with some guidance or verbiage to deal with this.
#30
The contract says;
(a) .................................................. or
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case..............
I read that as they have already provided you a legal rest, but you need more. We can agree to disagree on that.
I have had more than one DO agree with this.
I agree with you that we can't let others tell us what the contract says without reading it ourselves. That is why I am pointing out that our contract doesn't say the DO can extended you to 16 hours and you just have to accept it our call in fatigued as you seem to be saying.
Talk to the DO. Ask them to shorten the duty period or ask for a legal rest and take it from there.
(a) .................................................. or
(b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case..............
I read that as they have already provided you a legal rest, but you need more. We can agree to disagree on that.
I have had more than one DO agree with this.
I agree with you that we can't let others tell us what the contract says without reading it ourselves. That is why I am pointing out that our contract doesn't say the DO can extended you to 16 hours and you just have to accept it our call in fatigued as you seem to be saying.
Talk to the DO. Ask them to shorten the duty period or ask for a legal rest and take it from there.
If the Company's operations or flight(s) are disrupted due to extenuating circumstances not within the control of the Company, including, but not limited to, severe weather, natural disasters, ATC limitations or significant system disruptions, the following shall apply: i. A pilot may, subject to Section 12.C.5.b.ii. (below), be scheduled to continue up to FAR duty limits, with the prior approval of the Vice President, Flight Operations, or his designee, if necessary to complete his scheduled or rescheduled flight sequence or return to base, whichever occurs first. Block time limitations as described in Section 12.C.2.c. still apply. ii. In the event of a trip delay, revision or operational emergency that extends, or would extend, a pilot beyond the operational limitations, a pilot who becomes excessively tired shall notify CRS immediately and then speak to the Duty Officer about his situation. Depending on the pilot's situation and the Duty Officer's assessment, one of the following alternatives shall be enlisted to address the issue: (a) The pilot's duty may be revised to include some alternative duty that is at or within operational limits; or (b) The pilot may be given a legal rest period. In this case, the pilot's schedule thereafter may be postponed until after the legal rest period is concluded. Should it be determined that the pilot requires more rest than the legal rest provided, the pilot may be removed from the balance of his trip and be placed in sick leave status. If the pilot is placed in sick leave status the pilot shall be automatically returned from sick leave at the conclusion of his trip
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vagabond
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03-11-2007 02:21 PM