Thanks for the info Coffee B.

I'm sorry you are getting the run around. Shouldn't be that way. This is probably why some dudes are non-members.



That said, and I'm sure you agree, it sure is a good time to be at FedEx. Quick upgrades and a profitable future. Industry leading pay too.



Are pilots required to work contract issues thru ALPA? Could you hire an attorney to work with the company on your behalf? Seems like the best option since ALPA is not interested in your issue (your interest is not in their interest)

How can ALPA work a settlement that lowered the payout without your explicit consent?

Almost 2300 viewings of this post in just a few days. Recommend everyone request a copy of Grievance 02-02 that ALPA negotiated/signed with FedEx on Jan 10, 2007. For some reason, the signed resolution is not being provided to numerous pilots requesting a copy. It would be nice to see what was signed prior to the Feb 20 meeting so we can show up educated. I have made several attempts but still nothing provided to this ALPA member.

Have you tried requesting a copy under the Freedom of Information Act? I don't know if it applies to this situation, but if you look it up, I'm sure you can find out. If it does apply, then they are required to give you the info in a specified time period or face the payment of monetary damages to you.

CB,

Sometimes the climb to the top ain't worth the view. I'm not saying you shouldn't stick to your guys on this one, just that you really don't want to get the kind of reputation that will then not allow you some nice perks later on in your career here. Things such as helping get your old buds hired, maybe getting into training or management, etc, etc.

Good luck.

FWIW..David has always been respectful and helpful to me, even when I asked dumb questions. He is constantly barraged with questions by lazy pilots who refuse to read even the most easily understood questions in the contract and just want the easy way out. That is not what we pay dues for IMO. Expecting pilots to understand and follow the contract we voted for is not too much to ask. If David shows frustration with guys who have done their research and have legitimate questions I am sure it is the exception and not the norm.

That being said, this issue does not seem to be one of those easy ones and I can see where there are legitimate concerns. It will be interesting how it all plays out. In the last contract I know we lost many grievances we thought would be slam dunks in our favor. Maybe the lesson learned was to try and negotiate the best result we could without the grievance being settled against us? I don't know but something does seem out of kilter. I do know the company has been paying a heck of a lot of MD-11 Capt and F/O passover pay this last year and maybe the union thought a ruling against us might end up hurting them as well? Again, all conjecture at this point on my part but I am just trying to see their side of the coin as to why we would negotiate this outcome.

As far as our MEC Vice Chairman goes, it has long been said he has been away from the line too long. His correspondence seems to back that up to me and I will be pushing for some new blood next time around. I suggest you all do the same if you feel the same way.

Coffee B, two things:

1. If the company ADMITTED to making a mistake and paying passover, they almost ALWAYS dock said person's check and get it back. I personally know of situations where either passover, or LCA pay was paid when it shouldn't have. They caught it (company mistake), and the affected crewmember has to pay it back. So, maybe you should contact the person that was getting the passover and see if they are paying it back.

2. Secondly, I am a firm believer in your RIGHT to b!tch, complain, inquire, call the ALPA office every freaking day if you want, because YOU are a member, and YOU pay dues. You are paying for representation and if you don't feel like you are getting it, you are absolutely within your rights to do what you are doing. If you are told to "simmer down now" by WH, or anybody else, tell them to kiss off. Keep fighting your fight and hopefully you will get some satisfaction. I'd walk into the office at 8am and wait for WH to show up. Wait all day if you have to.

I absolutely agree it is time to churn the bucket of some of these folks that have lost touch with reality. I don't care how elegant a writer you are, it's time for a fresh perspective.

Lastly, if you don't believe that ALPA is good for you and me, you are wrong. We have what we have because of the organization. BUT, if you think that there isn't "behind the doors" stuff that goes on, you are wrong there too. I was an MEC member at a major carrier in another life, and trust me, there are things that stay behind the door. Kinda like a double-edged sword.

IMO of course

I may be way off the mark here, but I believe the junior pilot in question (pilot #2) has finished training and has activated in ANC. Until (unless) he activates in MEM (didn't happen in Feb or Mar) there isn't a passover issue for MEM guys. What am I missing?

You are off the mark. A total of 4 have activated to MEM and none has bid more than 1 month in ANC. At least 2 only did a custom line in ANC before activating to MEM.

Even if he does activate in Memphis it won't trigger passover pay for guys waiting for training in Memphis. If the guy bid ANC and those guys bid Mem, the ANC guy will never trigger passover pay for the Mem dudes. It has to be same seat, same domicile, same (or later) bid. If the guy can lateral over before the other guys train that is just the way it goes. If they want the pay they need to bid ANC and then take their chances lateraling back to Mem.

If I've read the posts correctly though, it sounds like one guy never went to ANC, his bid was canceled and he went straight to Mem. I think the guys have a beef if that occurred.

In any case the staff and officers of the union better treat the guys with respect and give the same level of effort to their case as they would an international widebody Captains about to retire, you know the ones they just blew in our last contract. I have no problem with the widebody Captions getting most or all of the increases, but they still need to take care of the FOs and SOs who also help move the freight. Treating dues paying members like that is inexcusable, as is the pitiful bonus the SOs were awarded in the contract.

The actuall number is 6.

If they did one month in ANC then they activated in ANC. If the guy went straight to MEM that is a different story.

I still think that the union should have been more upfront with the individuals involved before they settled for a measly 150 dollars. And NOTHING excuses them from treating ANY member without respect.

Sorry...I have to disagree...
 

That is one of the BIGGEST problems here at FDX...“Cooperate – Graduate” It is the “YES MAN” mentality that is apparent in every department you walk into at this company. I believe that this is the downfall of this group.

As far as changing of blood from guys that have been “away from the line” should be mandatory…career management and union members should be outlawed.

True True
 

JetJok,
Very true words you speak. Our group approached the union last fall with this issue and we were told to wait until said Pilot was activated so he would not have to pay back passover pay or more importantly get yanked out of training. We chose to do what the union asked. Said Pilot activated on a Friday and we began asking our questions on a Monday. Guess what, the deal had already been cut two weeks prior between the Company and ALPA.

Your point is well taken and I already have an awesome job at FedEx. I am having to weigh my role in this with the fact some feathers may be ruffled. With that, I have stuck with the truth, revealed all correspondance word for word, and exposed the inability of the union to provide the agreed upon resolution. With that, I must accept accountability for the political ramifications you speak of. The fact remains: Someone JR. to me, with the same bid from 06-02, trained prior to me (and 100+ others), and my training has been slid. In my small red-neck pea brain, thats what Ch 24 says should trigger passover pay. We will never see one penney of it because it appears that the union has piggy-backed our passover pay issue onto a 5 year old grievance in which no one at ALPA will provide? until we are provided answers (not just the ones we want Capt. WH) how can we truly evaluate the situation and motive behind the union? Can anyone please help the JR pilots in this matter?

Coffee, Thanks for posting this. I thought it was just some crew bus gossip. Here's what I see. Our union negotiated somthing away and WILL NOT TELL us why. Completely unacceptable and my block rep(5) will here from me. I'm not calling for heads yet, but if we puss out or sell out the junior guys, then somethings got to change. You deserve a public message about this situation.

I just emailed my block rep, and I suggest EVERYONE do the same! We just can't count on this company to stick to some quid pro quo agreement--they can't even stick to the contract!!!

I do not have a dog in this fight either, but I also e-mailed my block rep to get something in the open instead of back room deals, and reading it on a internet message board. Wish I could attend the MEM meeting.

This Deserves At Least An Alpa Response!
 

WOW!!! Thanks for high-lighting this most important issue!
After reading through the CBA and doing some in-depth research and asking "OUR" ALPA Union for some answers, I am appalled at what I found out!!! To keep it brief:

I'll paraphrase David Taylor, MEC senior contract specialist's response. "You don't have all the info. you need to call and question ALPA's settlement with the company." I said, well can you please provide me with this "settlement" information and why we were not informed that a "negotiation" had taken place without our pilot's being informed so that I may become more informed. The answer was basically "NO", and "we don't have time right now to address your issue." What? Don't have time?

So I called my block rep.. I basically got a less than satisfactory response. To summarize that conversation, I was told that pilot's that built this company sat "sideways" for 5-7 years, and it's simply "embarassing" that junior company pilot's are "whining" about passover pay at this point. I simply said that it was written in the contract that way...hell, I didn't write it! Again, he said a "settlement" had taken place that changed the nature of passover pay, attorney's were involved, and ALPA has agreed with the company to not pay passover pay due to a past grievance that had been filed.....not to be confused with a grievance that involves this current situation....one hasn't been filed to my knowledge.

If ALPA negotiated something/anything, don't we as good-standing members have a need to know, especially if it affects over 100+ pilots? I'm okay with the fact that ALPA might have agreed to something that changed the wording in the contract. What I'm NOT okay with is why NOBODY was aware of these negotiations and why NO ONE has heard or seen ANYTHING on a settlement that must have been a very big deal!!!


THE MORE QUESTIONS I ASK, THE MORE I FEEL I AM GETTING BLOWN OFF AND THIS ISSUE KEPT A SECRET! Has anyone found out anything or seen anything about the Jan 12th settlement with the company?

BTW: I don't think it's ironic that NO ONE can show us anything about this settlement. Not ONE pilot has been given an adequate answer to any of these simple questions. Obviously, many pilot's are concerned, and ALPA hasn't even addressed the issue! JUST WRONG.

~~~If you're not curious, maybe you were part of the "SECRET SETTLEMENT" and are hiding something as well.~~~

The ANC thing was somehow agreed upon in the secret settlement. Activate in ANC on a 3-week custom line and then lateral over to MEM where he will be "activated" the next bid-month.

Don't get me wrong here. I also think ALPA takes care of the top 50% at the expense of newhires and those "not on the property long enough".


But.....


There was a crazy loophole that was encountered by folks about to enter or in MD-11 training. Bid ANC and get a quick class date. Then get MEM on the next bid (junior to many who didn't bid ANC at all) and get awarded it with with the ANC MD-11 class date (out of order).

Past practice, as I understand it, was to change the award of someone about to start training or in training. Maybe this issue is just too tangled to properly untangle to EVERYONE's satisfaction.


If I step back, calm down, and consider the comments about being in the back seat for 5+ years may have been meant to emphasize how good things are now, this makes more sense.

But the secret deal BS is not good. Not right and it leads to distrust of ALPA. It WILL cause the membership to become more fragmented. ALPA may not be eating their young here, just alienating them because they can now with the closed shop.

With the history of FedEx management being hardnosed and unreasonable on every issue, I'm surprised passover is paid at all until the case gets to the supreme court.

Not trying to diminish the importance to someone's pocketbook, just looking for perspective......


Somebody tell me why a member can't get his/her own legal council to get to the bottom of this.

My situation is even more simple. I lost my right seat bid on 05-03 and the JR pilot sort of kept his 05-03 bid (training date moved to behind all the nuggets) when 06-02 was posted. That meant I was a SO for the "bonus" and not a right seater for another 18 months. Two pilots in the same situation get treated differently and the JR guy makes out +$75K more because of the company's admitted mistake.

Am I childish and stubborn as the Union suggests or would anyone else be asking for answers?

And to Cheetah's reply, If Dave Risch thinks he is embarrassed, he should be on our side of the fence !!!

CB,

Is it true that you are going to be flying our new 757's? Someone told that to me the other day and I was wondering how a fairly new guy like you, gets that really great opportunity? Was that done out of some sort of posting? I just don't remember seeing anything about that. Please advise.

CB is a very talented aviator, has some experience from another airline on the 757/767, and no...the job wasn't posted...I don't think.

I'm making some calls today... I've championed our union for years and will continue to do so, but we need to keep some things out in the open.

Ygtbsm
 

Is it true that you are going to be flying our new 757's? ..........CB is a very talented aviator, has some experience from another airline on the 757/767 .....So after all this talk from you about full and open disclosure, is it really true you're getting a training deal that was unannounced? Say it aint so Biitch, say it aint so!

I dont care if they make him SCP; I want to know what my union did and why they did it. It aint about biitch anymore. I thought senority was the golden rule.

LAG

............................................

Hey JetJok ... in case you haven't noticed this place is FULL of special good deals for a select few. I've never liked it much ... I guess I'm not in the "brother-in-law bubba club". But if I was, well then, it would be OK with me to get one of those good deals ... sort of like CBitch ;) ;)

My point exactly. Regardless of seniority, or filling a vacancy with a real posting? I don't especially like it either, but it goes on and we all know it. But in this particular case, it sounds like the company screwed up and CB has taken it upon himself to point it out to the rest of the world. No problem. But maybe he should lighten up a bit, seeing as how he's getting a good deal at the expense of someone else who might have had equal or better credentials, and been here longer, and thusly earned it more.

Don't misunderstand my position: I'm glad that we've found someone with previous 757 experience, and flight test at that. However, since this goes on, and everyone knows (especially CB) it goes on, than maybe he shouldn't ***** quite so much when it happens for/to someone else. Seems to me that the company screwed up. I'd prefer that they somehow undo what's been done for him, recoup the monies paid, and be done with it. After all, seniority IS seniority (and a contract is a contract.) As well, our union should be forthcoming with a valid explanation of all that's transpired. I've got a call in to them, in the hopes that someone will come clean.

Two problems one finally has answers.

1) Demeaning, condescending, lack of respectful timely correspondence between the union and our JR members. OPEN ITEM.

2) Passover Pay. After a period of weeks and no answers from ALPA, I spoke with John Hunt in FedEx Contract Administration. He got me in touch with Len Kelly (ACP) who was the grievance chairman until recently and is knowledgeable of the situation. I will attempt to explain but I refer you to him for answers and if I make a mistake in transferring the information it is my mistake. Although I don’t agree with some of the unions actions/methods in this situation I appreciate Capt Kelly explaining and answering EVERY SINGLE QUESTION I asked. The union has chosen to give the JR guys the Heisman for weeks now and Capt Kelly did their work in about 20 min. Thanks Capt Kelly.

It has been the company’s practice to cancel a pilots bid only if he is awarded a new bid and he has not started training. In the case of the same aircraft and seat and only a “Base Transfer” the pilot has kept his “older” bid. So even though many of us held the same aircraft, seat, and domicile of the JR pilot; the precedent has been set for him to retain his old bid and therefore go to training before the senior pilots. Len is researching where in the contract “Base Transfer” is addressed. This is where I disagree, in my opinion it is a Grey area and I am surprised the union chose to not consider our argument or address the argument with us prior to a settlement.

For those SR pilots who did hold an ANC MD-11 bid, the company offered a monetary compensation to resolve the issue vice Grieve the issue. The union weighed all the factors in the case including cost and the two parties agreed on a monetary compensation for those ANC pilots from bid 05-03. It was a very small number of pilots when compared to the pilots on 06-03 who feel like training occurred out of seniority.

In the old case involving Grievance 02-02 (727 SO who had a DC-10 SO bid but never went to training because the company removed his DC-10 SO bid when he was awarded a MD-11 FO bid), that person apparently did receive some monetary compensation but the union chose to include his “intervening award” clarification in the recent resolution and therefore negates those of us who were removed from receiving pay for a seat in which you bid out of prior to training. (sorry for the run-on lengthy sentence but I am doing my best).

I felt like many of the problems associated with this controversial issue (including this Thread) could have been avoided with better communication. I suggested that prior to the resolution the union could have contacted all of us possibly involved, explained the situation, and possible paths of action. We agreed to disagree on this point because the union believes what I proposed was not feasibly possible. We have had almost 4,000 hits on this thread in 3 days. I personally think it would have been possible. But the bottom line is our union officials represent us, and we elected them, so whatever path they choose we have to live with it. If you disagree, vote differently or volunteer to do union work and make a difference.

ALPA should poll the membership on the passover pay issue. I suggest the best course would be calculate the amount that passover pay costs the company. The company and ALPA should split the savings with the ALPA portion going to the top 80% of the list.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here but I have a better idea: Let's enforce the contract. If you are due passover, then you should get it, if not, sorry--no cash for you. I think that's all that's expected.

[QUOTE=Jetjok;118398]But maybe he should lighten up a bit, seeing as how he's getting a good deal at the expense of someone else who might have had equal or better credentials, and been here longer, and thusly earned it more.
QUOTE]

I can assure you that the "Good Ole boy network" had ZERO to do with my selection. It had everything to do with my credentials and remember from my email to you.....the company researched and tracked me down to fill a specific requirement, not the other way around. Ask those who made the decision why there was not a posting, and if their decision would have been any different. After being assured of those exact concerns, I accepted the job knowing I would only be paid as a SO and required to maintain currency in two aircraft and three seats (basically 3 PC's per year).

I did not, and will not accept "a good deal at the expense of someone else". I challenge you to find a posting that requires a specific seniority, maybe a seat position but not a seniority. And oh by the way, my job is temporary only, I will be back on the line. The full time position did go to the senior pilot.

Hope that answers your question and if not you have my number, please call and I can fill you in on many many more intricacies of this job (good/bad).

Put it out on a poll. Just do what the majority want. What is wrong with that?

So is the lesson learned: If you think you have a greivance, grieve don't let anyone at the union talk you out of it or talk you into delaying it?

Yes! I believe that's exactly what you should do. If you think you have a grievance, grieve it. If it's related to a trip you're on, the usual thinking is to fly the trip, unless it's FAR related, and then grieve it. Then it's up to the union to either take your grievance forward or not.

And CB, I'm happy that you got yourself a good deal, and that the company got a good guy to help out with the startup of the 757. Really! Just please don't ***** so much.

Remember, kids should be seen and not heard. Even if they are correct.

We already did, it is called a ratified contract. Go trolling elsewhere.:rolleyes:

Delete Delete

George, your @$$ is showing!

Hey Fox...we did a poll last year and the MAJORITY did not want age 60 changed. Guess you are for majority rule only when you are in the majority. The rest of the time we better leave it up to our "older, wiser" elders to decide what is best for us.

CB--my experience with Len Kelly has all been very good. The CBM bros say he was a good boss. It seems like he worked pretty darn hard for the union in a tough job the last few years. Now he's off to another battle...an an ACP. I wish him the best of luck. Glad you got your answers....

FYI...our Strat preparedness chairman is also a very reasonable man, and I discussed some of your very valid concerns with him as well. I think we'll see better comm with some of our union leaders in the near future...

Paying back passover?
 

On a side note, does anyone know what happens to an individual who bids ANC, recieves passover pay but is later awarded MEM on a following bid before going to training, and thus never activates in ANC? Does he have to pay his passover back?

Thanks,
SG