thesandbox

Yes, everyone says that we are ACMI, we are different, etc...but now we are getting guys from other ACMI carriers like World, Ryan, North American, etc, that did have better QOL when it came to schedules. Most of us did only work half the the month and somehow still managed to be "flexible" and please many many customers both pax and cargo. We do know it can be done and done efficiently allowing those that really do enjoy this flying and this lifestyle, but know for a fact that 17 days is not required to get it done, to work for the 14-15 days and let the others continue to pick up their open time. I like the flying, I like the flexibility, I like the variety, it just needs to be done, and can be, in a couple of less days each month. This needs to be a priority as you will never get QOL if you give it away first.

727gm

THAT'S what i'm talking about!

DC8DRIVER

With the addition of 4-500 new pilots in the last four years, I expect that the union elections coming up this fall will result in a paradigm shift from the old guard to a fresh crew that has valuable previous experience with well crafted contracts and the wars that need to be fought to win those contracts.

Atlas is a good place to fly but as I spend more time here, a number of contractual flaws are appearing that absolutely must be dealt with. I, personally, am dumbfounded by some of the glaring holes that we have to face with on a daily basis. These problems are compounded by company management that seems to rock the pilots back on our heels on a regular basis, keeping us from solving a number of active and persistent problems.

While the old guard has much to be proud of, they are in desperate need of relief which should be right around the corner.

It will be an interesting summer and I look forward to some enthusiastic discussions about the upcoming changes.

8

cargowannabe

So is this the hiring thread or the 'B!+@?' thread? 'Cause I can take below to the other thread.

Anyway so many mixed messages from OUR Union that I am not sure who to believe, first there is a post that we are in negotiations about ABC, then there is denial and a "we will tell you first when we are meeting" then there are people in the 'know' that talk of a win/win for gateway travel through talks with the company, then there was an P2P thing that said we are not in talks, but now everyone, including Union peeps say we are.

Dag on I am tired of trying to keep up. This is not how we build solidarity, this style of communication builds nothing but a lack of trust. I just wish the powers in charge would just let the mellow mushrooms know what is going on.

cargowannabe

Whaledriver

The ExCo is in talks of one sort or another on a daily basis. Friday, there were two conference calls, one trying to save a guys job. Those are all mini negotiations. Gateway improvements are in talks. Retirement is not. They are not talking about trading gateway for retirement. There, clear? Exactly what was said on the P2P call.

Now, to the question of an improvement package before 2016. It will have to make sense to the company to do that. Every $1,000 raise for us is a $1 mil hit to their bottom line. This year they have an estimated $75 mil profit for AAWW. We have to assume Titan is making money, because it's a simple dry lease. GSS is a loss. That leaves Polar and Atlas. Only the bean counters and management know what those two make.

As I said, in the "Real Atlas" thread, if a pay raise is required to man those planes, and the new work brings in less profit than it will take to give us an increase, it ain't worth it to them. Especially if it means more equipment, ie 777. I see little fixes, nothing more before 2016, unless the pilot shortage finally gets here. If the pilot shortage does arrive, then the company will have to run the numbers to see if a dry lease is a better deal for them. It is simple economics.

I'm still amazed at all the new people here, that left such great contracts to come here? All I hear about are the wonderful things they had in the previous carriers contract. Makes ya wonder why they left?

WorldDC10

Can't speak for others but I was at World so I came to Atlas for obvious reasons. There is no doubt that other carriers had better quality of life contracts (and better pay). In the case of the pay the hourly rate may have been less but the credits in the contract meant a higher paycheck - and that is why we do this isn't it?

The pilots contract at World was not what caused the company to go under - it was bad management with an unsustainable business plan and too much debt caused by the buy out.

Not sure what you find so difficult to understand in that!

thesandbox

The point is not always about the money....yes cost of living increases are a given but QOL does need to be addressed and can do so with out as much added cost. The rest can be made up with a better credit system. Are you asking why some of us left Ryan, World, North American??? Sorry, I didn't leave by choice nor did most of the others and wanted to come somewhere where the flying was similar. Lifestyle and Quality of that lifestyle are two different things. I've sent my previous contract to the contract study committee so these things can be looked at. I just don't buy the we are ACMI, we have to do things this way, mentality. Innovation, creativity, and change happens by thinking outside of the box and pursuing an idea far enough to see if it is feasible or not....like you mentioned that the company will do...we must also do the same.

ATCsaidDoWhat

OK. So if you didn't leave by choice; as did others from World, NAA, Ryan and elsewhere...what does that say about not only their business model, but also your contracts?

I don't think anyone is saying this is a great contract, that's why surveys are done during a contract life to track trends of problems. Because what is said out loud and what is said in a survey can and are, different things at times. But you need trendlines to make sure you are addressing the right things.

As to ACMI vs. ACMI. Let's compare a couple of ACMI customers...Uncle Sam and DHL...vs. lets say...China. Uncle can pretty much lay out a schedule that will be pretty stable with few changes. As he did with World, NAA, Ryan and whomever else. DHL? Pretty much clockwork.

Now lets consider China. They have a schedule. Looks great. Wait...a major shipper had a plant fire and the cargo delivery gets held up 16 hours. Do we move anyway? Only if China says so. Now scheduling gets involved. Wait...new plan...22 hour delay...wait...back to 8. How about the airplane that is coming to MIA and then the customer decides they want it in ORD instead? And the new crew is sitting in MIA in crew rest when they get the word? Do they get airmailed to ORD for more rest, then to operate? Or find another fresh crew? Is there on in ORD that can be used? And what about the cargo in MIA?

And so it goes. Anyone who saw firsthand the changes on a daily and hourly basis would shake their head.

Just as Uncle and DHL "own" the plane...and have pretty solid schedules...the others don't. I'm sure as hell not going to carry the companies water on this, but to say all ACMI is the same is to not understand ACMI. Should Atlas have put performance language into contracts that would cover this? Maybe. And what if the language doesn't cover the type of event?

There is a lot to be gained by having knowledge from other, past lives. However for it to be of any value, it also has to be understood that there is a reason that those carriers are where they are and Atlas is where it is. It also means that you can't just arrive here and say "this is how we did it at Airline X"...if you don't know this airlines history, you are doomed to failure.

One other comment about the management here. A review of their history will show anyone who looks that they aren't from the revolving door of the airline industry. They "get" the business and they "get" how to deal with foreign customers...region by region...which is a lot different than U.S. customers.

They also can and do know how to work with labor. For those here who don't know, it was the pilots union leadership that helped the creditors get through bankruptcy, get rid of dead wood and bring in a strong management team who worked with labor. As proof, go look up how many pilots groups went through bankruptcy without getting their contract gutted...got profit sharing back...and stock options. AND got a major impediment to QOL and job security...(AACS) voluntarily shut down by management?

Only one. Atlas.

Anyone who thinks that they will make progress by hammering on them is
a fool.

There were a couple of guys who didn't believe that. Their carrier was supposed to be the survivor and Atlas was to go away. They went in and began beating and demanding. Their way or the highway.

The result? You see it today in the name of the surviving carrier.

Anyone who thinks that doing it "old school" needs to think long and hard about how it worked for them in their previous life and if they want to find common ground and get the gains we all want...or just have another "former life" uniform hanging in the closet.

thesandbox

I think Atlas has a good business model and the leadership has been put in the positions by the system of checks and balances that goes along with a publicly traded company and I enjoy the semblance of security that brings. I can not speak for others but at Ryan we did have a decent business model that used to have us at over 800 pilots also flying for Emery and USPS that was undercut by politics at the highest level of the USPS and FedEx. The owners that purchased us in 2004 were a commercial real estate development company with greedy investors that set up so many LLC's that it has been discovered over just the last several months through further affidavits and subpoenas that the owners were actually able to steal over $100 MILLION in just the last year alone. We had revenues of $300-400 million the last few years and only around $50 million in debt.....go figure. We once thought we were the cream of the crap and well supported with a solid game plan but yes, the greedy saw $200-300K profit margins off of uncle sams teet and burned all their bridges flying those measly $30K profit margin trips. It is sad these days how a few can ruin it for several hundreds of others but it is what it is and I know there are already a few in jail for their fuel schemes with the DOD and hopefully more will come. For the pilot group it was a great place to work and we know we made money and supported all their commercial developments through the downturn. Several of us are now here and, yes, we enjoy it and have found the pilot group just as great. It is also nice to know growth and customers are not taken lightly and that hopefully we have a large enough market cap that keeps the hedge funds away as well. I am almost 43 and would like to spend my next 14 years at the same place once again, enjoying the type of flying this provides but it would be nice to know that OUR contract matches the type of product we provide and the customers that we try to attract. Some of us are just trying to help make all of our collective careers here the best it possibly can be.

cargowannabe

Just curious how you know about the phone calls if they in fact did take place? Whatever your position from inside OUR Union you sure do make a good case for management.

BTW, I will not copy and paste the P2P notes I received from a P2P member, but the quote was something like "we will ALWAYS be told if we negotiate." Well I have not been at Atlas long at all, but I seem to remember the AQP stuff was talked about with the company BEFORE we were told (BTW not asked what we wanted to open up 66 pages of contract) and now the gateway travel stuff, kinda makes go UHHHHHH what do I believe.

The $1000 increase in pilot pay to $1 mil rev where did you get that number, supposition, quick math or a truth, sorry fact? You know thinking that through how are we still in bid'ness from the old pay rates to the new ones with the same guarantee??????

Again not trying to divide just asking a question?

As far as where people come from and how they seem to be talked down to, I would be embarrassed to be that arrogant. Really everyone here has a story. Some better, some worse but we are all in it together. I assume we all want the same thing. The best for ourselves and our family. The question seems to be just how to achieve that common goal. I truly think this group is tired of living in a mushroom field.

cargowannabe