stickwiggler

Heavy,
that's horse crap.

First, I'm not "claiming" anything.

I was ALPA for 16 yrs 9 months and have been Teamsters for a year and a half so, yeah i rounded of my 18 1/2 years of experience.

Yes, i was also a military pilot for almost 7 years and did do a year in 135 management.

I'm sorry if that resume doesn't entitle me to an opinion compared to your lofty accomplishments.

So, in my diverse background, you claim i haven't learned a thing...

How wonderful it must be for you;
Agree with you or a person is completely ignorant.

Does your ego know no limit?

I am COMPLETELY familiar with the TA, rode show, vote process.

I am equally unimpressed with the hard core, brown shirt, union types that make personal attacks.

All of this because i have seen better communication in the past and made a public plea for better communication?

You act as if I'm running around telling people to vote yes on something we haven't even seen yet!

Maybe you should spend a little less time trying to mind read, formulating a fiction and attacking someone based on what you dreamed up in your head.

And, spend a little bit more time trying to listen to all points of view that have had a different experience than your own.

Not once have i attacked anyone for their opinion. i have simply shared some of the cautions my career has taught me.

If sharing an opinion, while not even criticizing others somehow effects your tenuous grasp on control, i guess you'll just have to learn to live with it.

Rolloutflare

Ha. Looks like Heavy hit a nerve with Sticky.

Remember this site is trolled by management. You want to vent frustrations about the lack of negotiation information, do it directly with the union or on their website forum. This forum is how the company finds discord in the membership, manipulates and distorts facts to us. Don't allow a carrot of bigger bucks blind you of the reality that the carrot is rotten or made of wax.

Hetman

Chances are the company is reading your union message board also. It only takes one rat-fink to provide them with access.

Nohope

Thanks Heavy and Roll, I guess I need to explain instead of just giving facts. My main point was our Union representatives have to comply with good faith bargaining practices along with the company. I was trying to inform the newer pilot group that TUL failed to bargain in good faith.

The letter states ownership brought an offer to IBT. This should have been taken to the committee. So you can read into this what you like. (sounds like more delay tactics) Now the IBT sends out the proposal to our team to review. (I’m sure TUL gave them time off to accomplish this task) If on off days or on the road flying, our team reviews and accepts or gives a counter offer on our behalf.

Yes I do get a little frustrated not knowing all that is going on, (good faith bargaining) but I trust in our team as should all the pilot group. Our representatives have always been forthright with all of the information they are allowed to share. I can not say this about the TUL team. You should be able to draw this same conclusion with all of this nonsense coming from the head office. I have to remember that some were not around for the last negotiations. Our reps for that negotiations are good people and believed the company was looking out for their employees. That is why we have our current contract. Had TUL been a little more liberal with implementation of this contract it may have gone smoother. Our Team is trying to get it right. (this is difficult when your on the road and no time to prepare)

Everyone just wants to see a contract so they can vote! I say instead of posting comments like this we stay united and let the team know our request. I have heard Kalitta or better? OK, does this mean hr rate only or is this the whole contract? We need to think about that and give an answer. TUL just wants to show you money so lets give our team a number with our current contract in a percentage form or hourly amount. Kalitta’s pay now and in three years has a disparity with Omni of 90-140 Percent. (401K business travel adjusted) So this is the number I would be looking for if nothing else change in our current contract.

Once again we need to stay united. The pilot group did not put us in this mess. TUL could have fixed this problem a long time ago, but greed, arrogance, stupidity pick whatever adjective you like caused our problems. So don’t be the weak link in our chain.
You will hear a lot of garbage on the line, but guess what the one’s complaining the most are usually the people who are not in good standing. (not always)

Thanks to all the people who devote their free time to make this pilot group strong and to those who have departed the fix to bring TUL back to the bargaining table. You will be missed. I hope it is not to late.

Packrat

You will see the contract when there's a Tentative Agreement. Until then, asking to see it is just playing into the Company's plot to end run the NC and "negotiate" directly with the pilot group.

Don't fall for it.

stickwiggler

Exxxxxxxactly!

I was thinking the same thing but I'm just tired of arguing and I'm especially tired of being told to stay united by the very people who have been degrading, accused me of being dishonest or subverting the efforts of negotiations, not to fall for a carrot, that things need to be "explained" or that in my 30 years, I've "learned nothing".

Not very "uniting".

At no point have I said people should do anything... they should act anyway, fallen for a carrot or demanded a TA before it is even written!

All of these attacks are predicated on incorrect assumptions.

This very morning i was listening to some of our guys from "Brand x" saying the exact same thing; That in there experience, the contract meeting updates had a little more meat on the bone in their past lives. That in his experience, it was just a philosophical difference between ALPA and the Teamsters. So I'm not alone in this assessment.

I understand the limits of disclosure in the negotiating process but somewhere between violating disclosure and updates that only say "management are a-holes" is a happy medium.

If just saying it would be good to increase communication a little creates this level of vitriol- the road shows and vote are going to be a hoot.

I'm bowing out of this.

I only came on here hoping to find some information because the word here in the hotel was K4 contract (all of it) and the reason they went to MEC was to expedite the process cuz they are afraid of a mass exodus.
Now, before someone jumps my ass for being naive, i say again, i was just hoping to find out if that was correct, or if it's just the money as some have suggested.

I'm not advocating for anything... just trying to get information because i have a few friends who are considering applying.

Dubiousbrother

I’m in agreement with Stick.
I’m profoundly disappointed with the lack of specifics regarding the company’s offer.

My ears are pierced with the chorus of empty platitudes from both OAI and the IBT. Now we’re told to shut up, don’t think for yourself and get in line with the rest of the sheep. Surrender all self-determination and free thought s to these paragons of wisdom and virtue that are the IBT. Just trust us with everything….we know what’s best for you.

NO ONE I know of is taking a position of blindly demanding a vote, we just want to view the actual data for ourselves.
Show us the details, and if the offer is “well below Industry standard” (whatever that is) we will be even more supportive.

Is it too much to ask for some of the particulars? Please tell me why that is so out of line to see the offer before people make important career decisions over the next few weeks. I’ve never heard such weak and pathetic drivel from adult professionals.

If the refusal to openly disclose information continues, then I have to assume there is something to conceal.

Packrat

Again, unless you have a Tentative Agreement with the Company, there is nothing to "see." A pilot group that demands to see every offer the Company puts on the table is a group actively undermining the Negotiating Committee.

Let them do the job you appointed them. When they hammer out a Tentative Agreement then and only then will you have something to see, debate and vote on.

If you don't like it vote No. Just be grateful you have membership ratification.

Dubiousbrother

I can’t believe the ease at which some are shepherded to the Hamster wheel and told to run full speed chanting solidarity. All the while blissfully unaware of the direction or destination.

I ask you this; would you accept this perversion of purpose in any other facet of your life?

Would you yield all curiosity to a financial planner who wouldn’t’ disclose details of your investment portfolio?

Would you accept your attorney who represents you in pending litigation, withholding pertinent details despite your requests for such?

How about a Physician that won’t provide you with examination results?

As pilots do you prohibit yourself from questioning ATC, Dispatch, Scheduling?

To blindly submit to any authority, be it an Employer, Government or Labor organization is folly.

For Gods sakes get a back bone. These people represent us, we pay for their services.

I am not only a colleague but friends with most of the negotiating committee. If they are being instructed not to reveal details to the membership from above, then I contend this policy needs to change.

I’m confident our negotiating reps do have our backs and best interests and they should be commended for that. But if the refusal to disclose vital information continues then I’m left with no other alternative to conclude that the IBT has become unmoored from their fundamental charter, to provide forthright representation.

ExtraMedium

The way you're talking about this you make it sound like the negotiating committee is making the final decision for us. They are not! We will get to vote.

When a financial planner is putting together a portfolio for you, he probably won't show it to you until he's happy that it's been completely planned out, and only then will he present it to you to sign off, or tell him to try harder.