Heavy

Oh one more thing.... You live in North America I assume, it's not apologise it's apologize... unless you speak the Queen's English of course.

aviatorhi

No... that would be silly for a multitude of reasons. It's also silly to spout "industry standard" without defining either. While the industry is booming now that neither guarantees it will continue to nor that a pilot shortage remains. The company is obligated to pay us even if it doesn't make a profit. I would hate to have the company turn the argument we like to use about being able yo afford it on us in that respect.

Anyway, without getting into a thesis on this whole thing, it seems the contract is getting close to acceptable for many pilots and with the right language being used would be welcome by most (nobody wants three days of travel to help the companu avoid paying the proposed "travel fee" to the pilot). To that end, I tend to agree that we get airlined around a lot more than others I know at K4 and GT. Some reasonable fixes have been proposed to that end (rather than stomping our feet and saying "but Timmy has one so why can't I?").

In any case. Anyone who thinks that Omni can't find 300 odd pilots to fly for the proposed wages (with or without biz travel) is not being honest with themselves. It might not be you or me or any of us, but I don't see doom and gloom for the company if they don't throw the biz class carrot to us.

Heavy

Yeah that's a great point. Let's hire the bottom feeders and hope they can make it through training... I mean the new hires now are all awesome. After 60 hours of OE they can almost get an oceanic clearance... Your a fool if you think Omni can't afford "industry standard"... Sorry was that insulting??? I swear I am working on that!

aviatorhi

I'm one of those bottom feeders. Made it through in 20, and I've even managed to pick up a few hundred oceanic clearances in my life. Anyway, nothing in any negotiation requires retention of current employees. Some surely want to stay, others don't. However, what a succesful negotiation does require, is the two sides to reach a mutually beneficial result with both compromising on certain aspects. To that end I believe the NC has been doing an excellent job of late and we should have a working solution in the near future. All that being said, militant attitudes on either side are not of any use. The company was in the wrong when they tried their take it or leave it approach while those in a headlong rush to try to take revenge on the company are equally wrong.

Heavy

Who said anything about revenge? I happen to like Omni and I want them to succeed. We just require "industry standard" compensation and benefits. Again, we aren't going to vote yes on a subpar contract so the new hires who will leave anyway can get their raise.

Also, I thought the minimum was 25 hours, 4 landings and one non flying leg.... Did they change that recently? I really don't care how many hours it took you to complete OE or how many oceanic clearances you have picked up. Truthfully I think your full of B.S. Ask any check airman on the line, the new average for completion of OE is around 60 hours.

aviatorhi

Define industry standard. The compensation and benefits need to match the company and pilot group accordingly. Otherwise we should just dispense with the whole process and refuse to fly until we have United pay. Is it there yet? Not based on what I've seen or heard. Is it close? I'd say so. Personally I wouldn't hold up a contract for months just to horse trade passenger duty pay for business class since it would be a wash. Things like 401k and accomodation language have a much more direct impact.

25 hours minus one hour per leg as flying pilot. Anyway 60 is an average I've heard higher (weren't there some 777 guys with over 100?) And lower, my class (half of which is gone now anyway) seemed to average about 30. But that was over a year ago.

stickwiggler

Heavy,
Fair enough.
Yes, I'm an FO.
But that doesn't mean I don't understand what it's like to be in your shoes.
36 months ago, i was looking at things from your perspective. I was a senior Captain at my Airline and was listening to the concerns of Pilots Junior to me.

This is not about me trying to invalidate your position or concerns but rather to try and convince you to stop attacking people who voice their opinions and concerns.

I know your a fairly senior 777 captain who is making good money....
who can afford to hold out...
who doesn't want to start over at another carrier....
And, I respect that. You did part of my ground School, and I thought you were a decent guy who was trying to help folks.

But, I do take issue with calling people names or trying to shout people down who are doing the exact same thing as you, and that is speaking up for what they deem as their best interest.

I'm not looking to go to war with you. We are all on the same team.

I do have concerns however, that pushing the company too hard might make the rich guys that own this place say "screw it" and take their money elsewhere.

I understand that you don't think that that is a probability and since you have been here longer than me I have to respect your opinion on that.
But, I'm not an idiot, a company shill, or any other names that some folks have called me here.
I'm just a guy who has seen contract negotiations end up being the demise of a carrier and I don't want that to happen here.

It's ok that you don't agree with that opinion or are not concerned about it, but I am, and more importantly, I have a right to be concerned about it.

You have a potential to be a leader among our pilot group, instead you choose to attack people that don't agree with you. you've made it clear that you don't care about that.... you have a right to do that too, but I just think that if you would try to make a persuasive argument rather than attack people you'd be more successful and getting people to see things your way.

It's up to you...
you can continue to try and insult me.... I won't take the bait.
Or, we can work together and try to find a solution that is acceptable to you but brings this process to a close as soon as possible.

90% of the pilots that I have spoken to are under the same opinion that holding out for 12 months is not worth the gains that are left to be made and the cost of money lost.

That's just the opinion of the people I spoke to.

Since I know that the negotiating committee and the company both read this website all I'm trying to do is convey information so that the people that represent us have an up-to-date sense of where each pilot is at.

At the end of the day, each of us are due paying members and are entitled to our one vote and more importantly, are entitled to express our opinion to our representation.

Let's work together rather than against each other and try to bring this thing to a close as soon as possible, and provide a contract ASAP.

Heavy

I am not sure who you think I am but you are dead wrong. I never taught ground school at Omni nor did I ever say I was on the 777. And that's the honest to God truth. I am not sure how you came to that conclusion.

stickwiggler

It's called Voice Recognition...

you know,
that little microphone looking thing on your phone...

But if you want to play grammar police, you said
"i can careless what you think..."

You meant to say "i can NOT care less (or more accurately, COULD NOT) care less"

What you said means you could in fact, still care less, ergo you do care.

I'm touched.

Heavy

Touché Stick, but don't be touched, I don't like you. Reading your previous posts it's abundantly clear what your all about. I have no use for people like you in life, you are greedy and egotistical. It's unfortunate that Omni had to lower its hiring standards and we are now forced to work with people like you. I am done with this now, Heavy out.