DEC: C5 vs PDT vs G7
06-02-2019, 11:36 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 64
DEC: C5 vs PDT vs G7
Primary goal is to fly my tail off & build TPIC. I’ll be commuting regardless of base; BTDT so I know what to expect. Don’t mind being stuck on reserve so long as I’m likely to get used with some frequency. I would anticipate being picked up by a major or LLC within 5yrs, so flows / promised interviews are purely a backup plan.
GoJet DEC
PIC accumulation: Rapid
Flow: Spirit/Frontier - Slow
Sign-on Bonus: $50k
CA Reserve Length: ?
Commuter Clause: 4 hotels
Crediting for prior 121 puts pay 30-50% higher
CommutAir DEC
PIC accumulation: Rapid
Interview: United - eligible after 1000 PIC / 12mo
Sign-on Bonus: $45k
CA Reserve Length: 4mo - Used nearly daily (short on CAs)
Commuter Clause: 4 hotels
Piedmont DEC
PIC accumulation: Slow - training delays
Flow: AA - 5yrs
Sign-on Bonus: $45k
CA Reserve Length: ?
Commuter Clause: 2 hotels
Anything I’m missing that would work in favor of / detract from any specific offer?
GoJet DEC
PIC accumulation: Rapid
Flow: Spirit/Frontier - Slow
Sign-on Bonus: $50k
CA Reserve Length: ?
Commuter Clause: 4 hotels
Crediting for prior 121 puts pay 30-50% higher
CommutAir DEC
PIC accumulation: Rapid
Interview: United - eligible after 1000 PIC / 12mo
Sign-on Bonus: $45k
CA Reserve Length: 4mo - Used nearly daily (short on CAs)
Commuter Clause: 4 hotels
Piedmont DEC
PIC accumulation: Slow - training delays
Flow: AA - 5yrs
Sign-on Bonus: $45k
CA Reserve Length: ?
Commuter Clause: 2 hotels
Anything I’m missing that would work in favor of / detract from any specific offer?
06-04-2019, 12:33 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 344
Since no one has responded, I'll bite. Disclaimer: I work for C5.
I would stay away from GoJet. They are shrinking as mainline carriers pull their flying in house to their wholly / partially owned regionals.
Piedmont has been a dumpster fire for the last several years but it has the potential to be better. They are about to get a new contract with better pay, but most pilot there seem to think QOL (work rules) will remain a challenge. The perk is that they're wholly owned, so if you want AA in your back pocket go there. Flow is not five years, by the way. It's more like 8-9. Single biggest issue with Piedmont is the ridiculous training delay. That was a non-starter for me.
Commutair is growing. They've added three aircraft in the last two months, with the ultimate goal of 60. There is a small possibility of a new base once they're above 40 aircraft. Biggest issue with this company is the current contract (both pay and work rules and the so-called "conditional reserve"), but the company is slated to begin negotiations on a new contract later this year. Flying on reserve is around 50 hours / month currently, though they hired a ton of FOs recently and times on reserve may decrease somewhat until block times increase substantially. Another downside for DECs coming in now -- C5 has hired a lot of DECs since the $45K bonus kicked in and a substantial number of FOs like me hired before this wave will jump ahead of you when we upgrade.
You don't mention PSA, probably due to the upgrade and reserve times, but I would sooner go there than Piedmont right now as the training at PSA is not backed up and you'll get to the line MUCH sooner. PSA may not have a DEC program (I don't follow the company here) but they were cramming people through upgrade the last couple of years so I can't imagine them being adverse to hiring you as an FO and upgrading you in training much like Commutair does. PSA also has a lot more base options.
Best of luck in your search.
I would stay away from GoJet. They are shrinking as mainline carriers pull their flying in house to their wholly / partially owned regionals.
Piedmont has been a dumpster fire for the last several years but it has the potential to be better. They are about to get a new contract with better pay, but most pilot there seem to think QOL (work rules) will remain a challenge. The perk is that they're wholly owned, so if you want AA in your back pocket go there. Flow is not five years, by the way. It's more like 8-9. Single biggest issue with Piedmont is the ridiculous training delay. That was a non-starter for me.
Commutair is growing. They've added three aircraft in the last two months, with the ultimate goal of 60. There is a small possibility of a new base once they're above 40 aircraft. Biggest issue with this company is the current contract (both pay and work rules and the so-called "conditional reserve"), but the company is slated to begin negotiations on a new contract later this year. Flying on reserve is around 50 hours / month currently, though they hired a ton of FOs recently and times on reserve may decrease somewhat until block times increase substantially. Another downside for DECs coming in now -- C5 has hired a lot of DECs since the $45K bonus kicked in and a substantial number of FOs like me hired before this wave will jump ahead of you when we upgrade.
You don't mention PSA, probably due to the upgrade and reserve times, but I would sooner go there than Piedmont right now as the training at PSA is not backed up and you'll get to the line MUCH sooner. PSA may not have a DEC program (I don't follow the company here) but they were cramming people through upgrade the last couple of years so I can't imagine them being adverse to hiring you as an FO and upgrading you in training much like Commutair does. PSA also has a lot more base options.
Best of luck in your search.
06-05-2019, 05:54 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 64
Thanks for your insight. At this point I’ve got it narrowed down to GoJet & CommutAir.
The kicker with G7 is they’re crediting for prior Part 121. That would bring my guarantee >$1k/mo higher than at C5. C5’s “FO pay during training” adds insult to injury - I’d be bringing in about $25k less that first year, & earning would remain substantially lower throughout my time with the company.
C5 has the CPP, which is very tempting as United is my ideal end-point. I’m lacking in TPIC but am sitting at 5500 TT, have done a M&G, have internal references, a degree, zero blemishes. If the CPP works, it’s worth the $25k. If it doesn’t, or if I’m street-hired, I’m going to feel like an idiot.
The kicker with G7 is they’re crediting for prior Part 121. That would bring my guarantee >$1k/mo higher than at C5. C5’s “FO pay during training” adds insult to injury - I’d be bringing in about $25k less that first year, & earning would remain substantially lower throughout my time with the company.
C5 has the CPP, which is very tempting as United is my ideal end-point. I’m lacking in TPIC but am sitting at 5500 TT, have done a M&G, have internal references, a degree, zero blemishes. If the CPP works, it’s worth the $25k. If it doesn’t, or if I’m street-hired, I’m going to feel like an idiot.
06-05-2019, 06:33 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 161
Originally Posted by SeriousShirley
C5 has the CPP, which is very tempting as United is my ideal end-point. I’m lacking in TPIC but am sitting at 5500 TT, have done a M&G, have internal references, a degree, zero blemishes. If the CPP works, it’s worth the $25k. If it doesn’t, or if I’m street-hired, I’m going to feel like an idiot.
06-05-2019, 04:05 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by SeriousShirley
Thanks for your insight. At this point I’ve got it narrowed down to GoJet & CommutAir.
The kicker with G7 is they’re crediting for prior Part 121. That would bring my guarantee >$1k/mo higher than at C5. C5’s “FO pay during training” adds insult to injury - I’d be bringing in about $25k less that first year, & earning would remain substantially lower throughout my time with the company.
C5 has the CPP, which is very tempting as United is my ideal end-point. I’m lacking in TPIC but am sitting at 5500 TT, have done a M&G, have internal references, a degree, zero blemishes. If the CPP works, it’s worth the $25k. If it doesn’t, or if I’m street-hired, I’m going to feel like an idiot.
The kicker with G7 is they’re crediting for prior Part 121. That would bring my guarantee >$1k/mo higher than at C5. C5’s “FO pay during training” adds insult to injury - I’d be bringing in about $25k less that first year, & earning would remain substantially lower throughout my time with the company.
C5 has the CPP, which is very tempting as United is my ideal end-point. I’m lacking in TPIC but am sitting at 5500 TT, have done a M&G, have internal references, a degree, zero blemishes. If the CPP works, it’s worth the $25k. If it doesn’t, or if I’m street-hired, I’m going to feel like an idiot.
06-07-2019, 06:33 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 61
I feel your pain. Only you can decide the best course and I wish you luck. I can give you my perspective. I took a 80k pay cut to come to C5 DEC to get 121 PIC and a shot at the CPP. I managed to get accepted and if I keep my nose clean I will have met all requirements and be eligible to go to United next spring which is ~18/19months after I started. Nothing is guaranteed but The DEC/CPP combo if it works out is worth its weight in gold in my opinion and that 25k will be recouped in a blink.
06-07-2019, 07:41 AM
#8
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Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by FranksNBeanz
What is conditional reserve?
Unfortunately, the current contract at C5 allows the company to put line pilots in this situation back on reserve. Yea, you read that right -- imagine being a line pilot, having your trip pulled so an LCA and a new FO can do some IOE, and then being forced to sit in the crew room for an 8 hour stint of airport reserve.
The union is well aware that eliminating this loophole is a chief concern for the pilot group in the upcoming negotiations, but we'll have to wait and see if they are successful in bringing this contract up to industry standards.
Incidentally, one way to avoid getting bumped from trips is to bid avoid all of the line check airmen. In fact the company openly provides a list of the LCAs precisely so we can use their employee numbers in bid-avoid preferences. The downside or risk in this approach, however, is that if you are low on the seniority list this can eliminate enough pairings (depending on how much training is being done that month) to push you back to reserve or delay you from getting a "real" line from which you won't be bumped.
For FOs, the time to a "line" is around 4 months. The time to a "real line" (which successfully bid avoids the LCAs and hence prevents you from getting bumped) is around 6 months. The upside to not bid-avoiding is that you'll get a "line" sooner, and in the event you are bumped from your trips you'll have 15-16 days off vs. 11 on an official reserve bid. That doesn't eliminate the pain of the situation, but it does reduce it somewhat.
06-07-2019, 09:09 AM
#9
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: DHC8 CA
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by njd1
At other companies, if you are a line holder and a trip is pulled by the company for whatever reason (admin, instruction, etc.), you're pay protected and released for the duration of the trip.
Unfortunately, the current contract at C5 allows the company to put line pilots in this situation back on reserve. Yea, you read that right -- imagine being a line pilot, having your trip pulled so an LCA and a new FO can do some IOE, and then being forced to sit in the crew room for an 8 hour stint of airport reserve.
The union is well aware that eliminating this loophole is a chief concern for the pilot group in the upcoming negotiations, but we'll have to wait and see if they are successful in bringing this contract up to industry standards.
Incidentally, one way to avoid getting bumped from trips is to bid avoid all of the line check airmen. In fact the company openly provides a list of the LCAs precisely so we can use their employee numbers in bid-avoid preferences. The downside or risk in this approach, however, is that if you are low on the seniority list this can eliminate enough pairings (depending on how much training is being done that month) to push you back to reserve or delay you from getting a "real" line from which you won't be bumped.
For FOs, the time to a "line" is around 4 months. The time to a "real line" (which successfully bid avoids the LCAs and hence prevents you from getting bumped) is around 6 months. The upside to not bid-avoiding is that you'll get a "line" sooner, and in the event you are bumped from your trips you'll have 15-16 days off vs. 11 on an official reserve bid. That doesn't eliminate the pain of the situation, but it does reduce it somewhat.
Unfortunately, the current contract at C5 allows the company to put line pilots in this situation back on reserve. Yea, you read that right -- imagine being a line pilot, having your trip pulled so an LCA and a new FO can do some IOE, and then being forced to sit in the crew room for an 8 hour stint of airport reserve.
The union is well aware that eliminating this loophole is a chief concern for the pilot group in the upcoming negotiations, but we'll have to wait and see if they are successful in bringing this contract up to industry standards.
Incidentally, one way to avoid getting bumped from trips is to bid avoid all of the line check airmen. In fact the company openly provides a list of the LCAs precisely so we can use their employee numbers in bid-avoid preferences. The downside or risk in this approach, however, is that if you are low on the seniority list this can eliminate enough pairings (depending on how much training is being done that month) to push you back to reserve or delay you from getting a "real" line from which you won't be bumped.
For FOs, the time to a "line" is around 4 months. The time to a "real line" (which successfully bid avoids the LCAs and hence prevents you from getting bumped) is around 6 months. The upside to not bid-avoiding is that you'll get a "line" sooner, and in the event you are bumped from your trips you'll have 15-16 days off vs. 11 on an official reserve bid. That doesn't eliminate the pain of the situation, but it does reduce it somewhat.
06-14-2019, 12:09 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,127
Originally Posted by Freebreakfast11
Adding to this, conditional reserve is not found in the contract, company handbook or FARs. Its a made-up term that allows scheduling to put anyone, regardless or reserve/lineholder or seniority, on reserve. Because there is no real definition, "conditional" reserve can be whatever scheduling wants it to be, and have often told crews that they had to sit at the airport in excess of 8 hours. Even if +TSRA is rolling through EWR, and 90% of the flights cancel, nobody gets to go home, and multiple crews are placed on this "conditional" reserve as a result.
Section 6 RLA specifies changes to pay, rules or working conditions are subject to the collective bargaining process. A dispute of the interpretation of existing language is a minor grievance which - regardless of value - must be handled through the grievance and arbitration process.
What you've described is something that does not exist in the agreement. You can't even file a contract compliance grievance since there is no such conditional reserve section to file over. I'd be all over your LEC/MEC Reps and ALPA legal on why a major grievance or unfair labor practice hasn't been filed.
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