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C5 expanding?

Old 08-09-2020, 01:53 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
If you are referring to my rather lengthy post about the UAL contract relating to the hiring of furloughed pilots as a dissertation, I was just correcting some false information posted by another United pilot who was incorrectly insisting that you guys would have hire furloughed United pilots. Actually quoting the contract makes for a long post, but it clears up rumors and speculation. There is nothing that is “allegedly required“ by UAX carriers. Since you guys don’t fly anything greater than 50 seats, the LOA doesn’t apply to you and your company can hire who they want. Carriers who do fly aircraft bigger than 50 seats will have to either comply with the LOA, or stop flying 70/76 seat aircraft for United. Good luck to all. There are no guarantees. United could have picked CommutAir to survive because they didn’t see a need a larger company to handle a much smaller E145 fleet going forward, or you guys could expand. United could keep planes in storage, or entire fleets could be retired. This is far from over, no one is safe, and there will be more industry casualties before this is over.
ok I stand correct thanks. Looks like C5 and AW are outside the agreement. I didn’t read the intro as good as I should have I just skipped right to the language. Sorry all.
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:09 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
ok I stand correct thanks. Looks like C5 and AW are outside the agreement. I didn’t read the intro as good as I should have I just skipped right to the language. Sorry all.
I honestly thought the LOA was for all carriers myself until I read it.

I also don’t know how much of an impact the LOA will have. Being that UAX flying is tied to mainline block hours, I really don’t see anyone hiring for a while. The look back for scope will be kicking in soon and the regionals are going to see long lasting reductions in flying while United is smaller. The regionals flying 70/76 seat jets will have to make the appropriate number of actual job offers to furloughed United pilots, but only time will tell how many want to be a new hire sitting reserve at regional for second year F/O wages. The people who will be affected by all of this are the experienced 121 pilots who are seeking employment after their companies were shut down, followed by people looking to get started in this business. When hiring resumes, they will end up waiting for those companies to go through the United list before they can expect an interview. The people who were close to the hiring requirements and looking to get their first airline job are really in for a wait. There are thousands of extremely experienced 121 pilots to go through before the new guy stands a chance.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:59 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
I honestly thought the LOA was for all carriers myself until I read it.

I also don’t know how much of an impact the LOA will have. Being that UAX flying is tied to mainline block hours, I really don’t see anyone hiring for a while. The look back for scope will be kicking in soon and the regionals are going to see long lasting reductions in flying while United is smaller. The regionals flying 70/76 seat jets will have to make the appropriate number of actual job offers to furloughed United pilots, but only time will tell how many want to be a new hire sitting reserve at regional for second year F/O wages. The people who will be affected by all of this are the experienced 121 pilots who are seeking employment after their companies were shut down, followed by people looking to get started in this business. When hiring resumes, they will end up waiting for those companies to go through the United list before they can expect an interview. The people who were close to the hiring requirements and looking to get their first airline job are really in for a wait. There are thousands of extremely experienced 121 pilots to go through before the new guy stands a chance.
It's a 12 month look back so next April is a likely UAX bloodbath unless of course Scooter pushes forward with the original plan to widdle down to 4 UAX carriers. Then it will be a rolling disaster like we've seen so far.

Duration of the slump matters. The highly experienced 121 pilots will start having difficulty getting hired if more than a year goes by. Almost all air carriers require currency for new hires. That's the real travesty of losing recall rights. Why a 1500 hour CFI with landings and a flight review beats out a 10,000 hour ATP with three type ratings who hasn't flown for two years is a mystery to me but I've seen it happen every downturn since 9-11 and don't expect it to be any different this time.

The TSA and Compass folks are already pushing 6 months. It's an unmitigated disaster for many of them. Kudos to K4 and AS for hiring some of them but there aren't enough seats for everybody.
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:42 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by tallpilot View Post
It's a 12 month look back so next April is a likely UAX bloodbath unless of course Scooter pushes forward with the original plan to widdle down to 4 UAX carriers. Then it will be a rolling disaster like we've seen so far.

Duration of the slump matters. The highly experienced 121 pilots will start having difficulty getting hired if more than a year goes by. Almost all air carriers require currency for new hires. That's the real travesty of losing recall rights. Why a 1500 hour CFI with landings and a flight review beats out a 10,000 hour ATP with three type ratings who hasn't flown for two years is a mystery to me but I've seen it happen every downturn since 9-11 and don't expect it to be any different this time.

The TSA and Compass folks are already pushing 6 months. It's an unmitigated disaster for many of them. Kudos to K4 and AS for hiring some of them but there aren't enough seats for everybody.
I don’t know what Kirby plans for mainline or express. He could be serious about dramatically reducing 50 seaters even though he is scoped out on big rj’s, or the plan could have changed a dozen times between now and when all of this started.

Not being current won’t be as big as a deal as you may think. I didn’t fly for over a year after 9/11, but I was hired by an ACMI company during furlough. My resume and application showed that I had the background to complete training with no issues. Half of my class were furloughed legacy pilots who hadn’t flown in a year, the rest were regional pilots. Those high time 121 pilots will most likely have an experience similar to mine. If you were in charge of hiring new pilots to fly an rj, who would you hire? Would it be the applicant with thousands of hours of 121 jet time and no recall rights because their airline was shut down, or the 1,500 hr CFI that basically knows nothing about flying jets or the airline training fire hose? I know who I’d hire, especially when United starts recalling and then hiring. The regionals are going to need people that can go really fast and someone banging around the pattern in a Cessna just doesn’t have the background to do as well as the currently available competition.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:30 AM
  #125  
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I heard a rumor of a AMA MX hanger also...
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:57 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
I don’t know what Kirby plans for mainline or express. He could be serious about dramatically reducing 50 seaters even though he is scoped out on big rj’s, or the plan could have changed a dozen times between now and when all of this started.

Not being current won’t be as big as a deal as you may think. I didn’t fly for over a year after 9/11, but I was hired by an ACMI company during furlough. My resume and application showed that I had the background to complete training with no issues. Half of my class were furloughed legacy pilots who hadn’t flown in a year, the rest were regional pilots. Those high time 121 pilots will most likely have an experience similar to mine. If you were in charge of hiring new pilots to fly an rj, who would you hire? Would it be the applicant with thousands of hours of 121 jet time and no recall rights because their airline was shut down, or the 1,500 hr CFI that basically knows nothing about flying jets or the airline training fire hose? I know who I’d hire, especially when United starts recalling and then hiring. The regionals are going to need people that can go really fast and someone banging around the pattern in a Cessna just doesn’t have the background to do as well as the currently available competition.
Let's hope so. I think it is insane to reject the experience of senior pilots simply because they have been without a job for a few years. My experience has colored my perceptions.
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Old 08-10-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tallpilot View Post
Let's hope so. I think it is insane to reject the experience of senior pilots simply because they have been without a job for a few years. My experience has colored my perceptions.
There are going to be thousands of highly qualified applicants flooding the market for a while, and losing currency will be more the norm than the exception. I would expect airlines to take that into consideration when hiring resumes. Just looking at the UAX operation, there are only a few companies that don’t have to offer jobs to a certain number of furloughed United pilots first. Depending on how many take the offer, the wait time for others to get hired could be further extended. The days of having to offer signing bonuses or taking who you can get are over for a while. It is a buyers market and the airlines can cherry-pick who they want out of a very deep pool of highly qualified applicants. Those who were just getting started, or those who were wanting to get hired by an airline, are probably in for a long wait while far more qualified applicants take what jobs there are.
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:06 PM
  #128  
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There’s a very annoying and repetitive theme in this thread. Somewhere along the lines of “the less experienced pilots will have to wait for the rest of us gods to punch our ticket at xyz airline, and it’s gonna be a long wait for them” As if you were all born with TPIC time and a jet-type in the 145. You were there once too.

Yes, more experienced pilots would logically be hired before CFIs. But saying airlines HAVE to hire the old guard just cuz is ridiculous and exposes your own insecurities. They can hire whoever the fludge they want. Heck, most of the complainers about the young-in’s probably got into the airlines themselves with 250 hours and a CMEL.
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:38 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by CantTaxiToACS View Post
There’s a very annoying and repetitive theme in this thread. Somewhere along the lines of “the less experienced pilots will have to wait for the rest of us gods to punch our ticket at xyz airline, and it’s gonna be a long wait for them” As if you were all born with TPIC time and a jet-type in the 145. You were there once too.

Yes, more experienced pilots would logically be hired before CFIs. But saying airlines HAVE to hire the old guard just cuz is ridiculous and exposes your own insecurities. They can hire whoever the fludge they want. Heck, most of the complainers about the young-in’s probably got into the airlines themselves with 250 hours and a CMEL.
Everyone is a know nothing new pilot early in their career. Nothing has suggested that the high time 121 pilots who are looking for work are entitled to those positions, or that the new people will not make fine pilots once they gain experience. It’s just the reality of what is going to be on the market. The airlines don’t have to pick one group over another, but when they do hire who do you think they will pick? Will a company like CommutAir hire the person with 5,000 hours and a proven training record flying the exact jet that they will be hired to fly, or seek out someone out of general aviation with zero jet or airline experience to give them a shot? Training is expensive. Who do you think will require more training during systems, who do you think is more likely to need extra sims, who will need extra IOE? Riding in regional jumpseats for the last several years I heard story after story about the new hire pilots requiring much more IOE than what the program originally called for. Many needed well over 50 hours before being signed off. I’m not bashing the new pilots. Jumping from a Cessna to a jet in the fast passed regional environment is a big challenge, but if you are hiring pilots, are you going to select the applicant who will be able roll quickly through training and start earning the company money, or are you going to hire the new guy that you will require much more time and money getting them up to speed?
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:22 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
Everyone is a know nothing new pilot early in their career. Nothing has suggested that the high time 121 pilots who are looking for work are entitled to those positions, or that the new people will not make fine pilots once they gain experience. It’s just the reality of what is going to be on the market. The airlines don’t have to pick one group over another, but when they do hire who do you think they will pick? Will a company like CommutAir hire the person with 5,000 hours and a proven training record flying the exact jet that they will be hired to fly, or seek out someone out of general aviation with zero jet or airline experience to give them a shot? Training is expensive. Who do you think will require more training during systems, who do you think is more likely to need extra sims, who will need extra IOE? Riding in regional jumpseats for the last several years I heard story after story about the new hire pilots requiring much more IOE than what the program originally called for. Many needed well over 50 hours before being signed off. I’m not bashing the new pilots. Jumping from a Cessna to a jet in the fast passed regional environment is a big challenge, but if you are hiring pilots, are you going to select the applicant who will be able roll quickly through training and start earning the company money, or are you going to hire the new guy that you will require much more time and money getting them up to speed?
Just one issue. That new fresh 1500 hour CFI will continue flying for a company like C5 for quite a few years now. That mainline guy/gal who gets hired, isn’t going to be riding their way into retirement at places like C5. Once the mainline carriers start to rehire the all those furloughed pilots, they will be gone. Thus, leaving C5 and the other companies who hired them pilot looking for their replacement. When they could have just hired that fresh 1500 hour CFI, and made money on the investment. They would pay less giving that new guy/gal their first taste of the jet life a few extra sim lessons or ground lessons (if they even needed it) than paying for that seasoned furlough pilot and their CFI replacement a year or two later.
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