ToiletDuck

Yes you're right on the first year pay. I'm not saying it's not common I'm saying it doesn't help any random rants about mainline pay when it starts at the same rock bottom. No I wouldn't agree that I think that's where everyone should start. By the time you're hired you've already demonstrated you are a professional pilot there's no need to drop it to such low income.

Would I accept a position flying for a mainline carrier at 30k? Depends on the mainline but yes since they all do it. Shouldn't but they do.

Would I prefer all flying be at the mainline level if it meant all of our longevity started at an earlier point? No. I can't imagine what it'd be like to be at a place for 10+ years then have to go back to the bottom below some 18yr old in the right seat of an ERJ because your company went BK. Or watching your airline go from top notch to rock bottom due to bad management while you're still at year 10 as an RJ captain but stuck in the middle of a seniority list unable to go anywhere else without having to start all over. You'd be forced to suck it up for the rest of your life.

What's wrong with regionals being independent? It allows people more opportunities to make decisions that are best suited for them. At 6-8yrs at RAH guys are holding 16+ days off a month making decent money and home almost every night if they live in base. If RAH was part of a 10,000 man seniority list that would never happen. Not everyone gets in the game at 18-25yrs old. We have 45+yr old FOs here. What you'd see is large drop in pilot availability as people would simply go into other industries.

I don't understand why people seem to think that pay would go up simply because you're on a mainline seniority list. The $$$ per seat mile is the name of the game here. With every airline except SWA and Alaska posting jaw dropping losses there's no way they'd pay more for someone to fly a 50 seat jet.

It's all relative. If everyone is on the same seniority list then your longevity pay etc would all diminish accordingly to still stay within the margins available for the company to operate more successfully. There are averages they maintain. For any increase that could possibly happen on the lower end you'd see a decrease on the upper end.

Regionals are also more able to dodge furloughs etc. While yes they happen the percentages aren't near what they are at the mainline and the regional company still tends to make money from its long term contracts. If part of one massive seniority list not only would we furlough because of regional cutbacks but we'd also furlough due to the decrease in mainline flying. The risk of being furloughed are much greater during your first several years.

Lastly if we were all on one seniority list I'd be stuck as an FO for a LOT longer making less. By upgrading quicker to a regional CA before moving to mainline FO I increase my earning ability and QOL. Once I do jump ship to a major, if that happens, my earning ability and QOL will increase at a faster rate once there. Reason being is, take RAH for example, we have a lot of "lifers" here. I'd say several hundred. That's several hundred from my regional alone that would be ahead of me in any integrated seniority list. There would be MUCH less attrition since the investment required to get to those positions would be MUCH more. People would be less willing to go to other companies due to things like location or work rules if it meant having to go allllllllllllllllll the way to the bottom, start on an RJ at FO rates, and work the way back to the top.

I think having regionals and mainline on the same list has several major drawbacks. It limits options, increases time required to obtain a decent QOL, no reason there would be any increase in pay(just wishful thinking), higher probability of getting furloughed for longer, decrease upgrades(I wouldn't be able to dodge the several hundred lifers here), and we'd be more susceptible to financial woes. Imagine pay cuts across the board like post 9/11 except happening to someone who's already less efficient(price per seat mile) and making RJ FO pay. Basically if you didn't live in base and start when young you'd be screwed up the wazoo. Would suck hard for all those 20yr military guys expecting any decent career.

Superpilot92

Ok how about industry wide Longevity? Then airline management would have to treat pilots better because we wouldnt be "stuck" at our companies because of our seniority or longevity. In other industries people may change companies a number of times looking for more career potential or QOL and often can make the moves with never taking a paycut, in fact its usually for a pay raise. We have made our seniority work against us in this industry.

ToiletDuck

There's definitely potential for a more regulated industry if people put pen to paper. (Please don't think I'm coming down you at all dude I know the type makes it hard to hear the emotions being displayed, no disrespect by any means).

Basically what it sounds like in your post is "free market". In a free market people get paid based on ability or fear of leaving for another company. The only problem with that is that we then lose the bargaining ability and since we all do the same job there would be no standard holding one guy from screwing over the next because he liked the pretty plane. We're a trade. Independent ability doesn't matter. Pass the training you're good to go and do the same exact job. We aren't like marketing, sales, and so on where performance can change drastically based on the individual. So long as we show up things pretty much happen the same. We're no different than welders, truckers, or factory workers in that aspect. There's nothing wrong with saying it's a trade though. Ours takes more desire and discipline than just about anything else which is what sets us apart.

Unionism beats along the path of communism. More regulation to keep everyone equal. In theory great practices but then there's the human "want" to achieve more than his neighbor. So you'd need to offer flexibility with stability. Basically back to regulation except with a new twist.

Here's how I'd see it. First off there would be two seniority list in the country. One national list, lets just stick with ALPA for the hell of it, and one independent company list.

The airlines could operate their own routes with their own aircraft as they see fit however when an opening for a pilot position became available they'd have to allow the opening to be posted so that all pilots on the national list could bid. A CA at DAL could bid for a CA spot at CAL if he wanted to live in Houston. He'd get the CA position in CAL but then be on the bottom of the CA list there. He would protect his lifestyle except be at the bottom for bidding, days off, etc. This would allow him to make a move and suffer less. The CA spot at DAL would open and if able a FO at NWA, CAL, etc. could bid for that spot. Of course they'd go to the bottom CA spot on the company seniority list but still retain their spot on the national list.

Am I making sense? You'd limit the drawbacks and QOL issues with leaving one company to another yet still open up the positions for the FOs to move up. Movement would stay on track as those that want to stay lifers would stay put while the FOs who wanted to move up could bid out to new CA positions in other areas.

The national list would be kept by ALPA and the gov't regulation of the industry would ensure, or help ensure, decent pay across the boards. Airline A might pay a few % less than airline B but the pay would still fall within gov't guidelines and that slightly lower paying company could be targeted by eager FOs wanting to make the move to CA. They'd still get their 40%ish increase in pay and of course be left seat. Then could wait for their time to bid back to their home area.

Negotiations could go better and would be on a national level. The companies would be safer due to price protection of tickets, no skybus coming in trying to sell $10 since their employment cost would be relatively the same, yet the airlines would be able to increase or decrease routes, chose where they want to go, do additional things like cargo etc. Flexibility would increase for the pilots without as many drawbacks as one large seniority list for each independent company. Upgrades for the young bucks would keep on rolling dodging the stagnation of the hundreds of lifers on your list and company "strong arm" ability would die down. They couldn't say "take this pay cut or risk going to the bottom of another list making RJ FO rates for the next 5+yrs".

Just a thought.

Superpilot92

none taken i am always up for an educated debate

KITT

I agree, first year pay is horrible even on mainline. To require ATP mins for the job and get paid poverty level wages is not right at all. Plus if you do flow up, you start right back where you about were at the regional, and that's not right either. I know people that clean teeth and dig ditches (not knocking those people at all, more power to them) that make more than us and we protect people's lives. Whatever happened to "the greater the risk the greater the reward?" Just to throw it out there, that I would love a staple to the bottom of mainline. That is just me though, I don't speak for the rest of the pilot group.

H46Bubba

It ought to be interesting when they start finalizing this wholly owned thing. I think they finally got smart when they decided that all three of us need to be on the same operating systems and programs for operations. I believe it should mirror exactly what mama D uses to streamline the entire Delta/wholly owned DCI operation. So exactly how does MCH holding thing work for you guys now? It will have to reamin independant from DCI if there are still going to be contracted regionals such as SkyWest/ASA an such. If not I can see DCI morping into this new holding/management entity.

The Chow

Bubba,

When were you guys told that all back office applications had to be the same? Does this include maestro?

BobSakamano

Although the companies are in the early stages of integration, the only compatibility that is certain is back door. All pilot groups involved will be forced to comply with the proposed exciting synergistic "open back door" policy. As a token of appreciation, soaper on a rope will be distributed to the combined pilot group.

LoudFastRules

Cool, thanks for the correction.

SharkyBN584

I read the very first post, laughed, and skipped to the end. Oh, I heard RAH is going to buy F9.